Open 1 spade, 4 spades, 2 Clubs.

[Liversidge]

And this is the source of a lot of issues in Acol. For the OP, if you see a reference to the "hand of death" or similar it's usually a good 6 card suit often with 3 cards in responder's major and strong enough that a NF rebid of 3 of your suit risks missing game.

 

eg 1♦-1♠-?

 

AQx

x

AKJxxx

AJx

 

Tweak the hand to:

AKx

x

AKJxxx

AJx

 

8 playing tricks, where some at my club would open 2♣, which might find game where if I open 1♦ my 3♦ rebid gets passed out. I'd rather not try to cover it off with an additional mod such as an extended 2NT or cue bidding - we have enough on our plate for now.

Should I just accept that it is just an example of where nothing's perfect, and occasionally 2♣ with 8 playing tricks works better, but most times it doesn't, which is why nobody who is anybody in the bridge world plays it (rehearsing my explanation to a questioning partner).

[TMorris]

Tweak the hand to:

AKx

x

AKJxxx

AJx

 

8 playing tricks, where some at my club would open 2♣, which might find game where if I open 1♦ my 3♦ rebid gets passed out. I'd rather not try to cover it off with an additional mod such as an extended 2NT or cue bidding - we have enough on our plate for now.

Should I just accept that it is just an example of where nothing's perfect, and occasionally 2♣ with 8 playing tricks works better, but most times it doesn't, which is why nobody who is anybody in the bridge world plays it (rehearsing my explanation to a questioning partner).

 

If you open this 1 ♦ which is not unreasonable you cannot rebid 3♦ you need to "invent" a bid which would usually be 3♣ as you try not to rebid a 3 card major if at all possible. Partner can pass 3 ♦ but 3♣ is game forcing.

[NickRW]

Tweak the hand to:

AKx

x

AKJxxx

AJx

 

8 playing tricks, where some at my club would open 2♣, which might find game where if I open 1♦ my 3♦ rebid gets passed out. I'd rather not try to cover it off with an additional mod such as an extended 2NT or cue bidding - we have enough on our plate for now.

Should I just accept that it is just an example of where nothing's perfect, and occasionally 2♣ with 8 playing tricks works better, but most times it doesn't, which is why nobody who is anybody in the bridge world plays it (rehearsing my explanation to a questioning partner).

 

As you note there are ways and means of handling this sort of hand without opening 2C, but they are not really beginner topics for this forum (indeed not all expert pairs have adopted specific solutions for what is sometimes called the "death hand". The usual solution if you're playing 3 weak twos is to open 1D and "invent" a fourth club and rebid 3C.

 

Reverse the clubs and the hearts - now you've got a lot of people head scratching as they don't like inventing a fourth card in a major suit!

 

 

 

Nick

[Liversidge]

 

Reverse the clubs and the hearts - now you've got a lot of people head scratching as they don't like inventing a fourth card in a major suit!

 

Yep! Since TMorris's post I have been trying to figure this one out, without success. The way I am looking at it is that no system is perfect and this is one of those problem hands that the system doesn't deal with well. For example, a few weeks ago I posted about a hand where I had 19 HCP and opened 1♦. Partner responded 2♦. I didn't have a stop in one of the suits and was asking how I might check. The most common advice was to cross my fingers and bid 3NT.

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/74137-1d-2d-3nt/

 

 

Back to this topic - I can now think of quite a few situations where opening 2♦ with 8 playing tricks and 19 HCP could cause problems. For example: 2♣ 2♦ -3♦ - ? If partner has 3 HCP, unbalanced hand and no diamonds does he bid 3NT?

[P_Marlowe]

Yep! Since TMorris's post I have been trying to figure this one out, without success. The way I am looking at it is that no system is perfect and this is one of those problem hands that the system doesn't deal with well. For example, a few weeks ago I posted about a hand where I had 19 HCP and opened 1♦. Partner responded 2♦. I didn't have a stop in one of the suits and was asking how I might check. The most common advice was to cross my fingers and bid 3NT.

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/74137-1d-2d-3nt/

 

 

Back to this topic - I can now think of quite a few situations where opening 2♦ with 8 playing tricks and 19 HCP could cause problems. For example: 2♣ 2♦ -3♦ - ? If partner has 3 HCP, unbalanced hand and no diamonds does he bid 3NT?

I assume, you spoke about opening 2C.

Strong minor 1-suiter usually show 9+ playing tricks.

 

If 2D is unlimited, just waiting, than the question is, is 2C forcing to game, if yes,

than he tries to bid a 4 card major or otherwise 3NT, if no he can pass.

 

At the end of the day, this is a area, were you have to pay off, if you want to keep it

simple, if lightning strikes, get up again, move on to the next board.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Liversidge]

I assume, you spoke about opening 2C.

Strong minor 1-suiter usually show 9+ playing tricks.

If 2D is unlimited, just waiting, than the question is, is 2C forcing to game, if yes,

than he tries to bid a 4 card major or otherwise 3NT, if no he can pass.

Sorry I meant opening 2♣.

Partner and I play that we need to be within one PT of game in our suit to open 2♣, but some at our club will open with 8 playing tricks, even in a minor! Most play that a 2♦ response shows 0-7 HCP. We have just started playing a different set of responses:

2♦ = 1+ playing trick, no strong suit (5+ & two top honours), maybe balanced

2♥ = 0 playing tricks, no king, no two queens

2♠/3♣/3♦ = Positive 7+ HCP & 2 playing tricks, with a “strong suit”.

2NT = Positive heart suit - 6-7+ HCP & 2 playing tricks with a “strong suit”

3♥/♠ = 6/7 card ONE loser major suit (KQJxxx, AQJxxx, AKJxxx)

It has the added benefit that if opener has a balanced hand and responder has a natural 2NT response the contract is not played with the strong hand on the table.

[P_Marlowe]

Sorry I meant opening 2♣.

Partner and I play that we need to be within one PT of game in our suit to open 2♣, but some at our club will open with 8 playing tricks, even in a minor! Most play that a 2♦ response shows 0-7 HCP. We have just started playing a different set of responses:

2♦ = 1+ playing trick, no strong suit (5+ & two top honours), maybe balanced

2♥ = 0 playing tricks, no king, no two queens

2♠/3♣/3♦ = Positive 7+ HCP & 2 playing tricks, with a “strong suit”.

2NT = Positive heart suit - 6-7+ HCP & 2 playing tricks with a “strong suit”

3♥/♠ = 6/7 card ONE loser major suit (KQJxxx, AQJxxx, AKJxxx)

It has the added benefit that if opener has a balanced hand and responder has a natural 2NT response the contract is not played with the strong hand on the table.

Ok, but than the 2D response to your 2C opening showes some live, and you should have some play in 3NT.

I was responding to a post of yours, where you said, if I open 2C, and you raise partners response to 3D,

should your partner close his eyes and bid 3NT.

The answer is yes. Would he bid 3NT, facing a 2NT opener, holding a hand with a playing trick?

The answer is he should, and the 2C opener is not weaker in playing strength than a 2NT opener.

The only difference is, that the weak hand gets to play 3NT, ok happens.