Open 1 spade, 4 spades, 2 Clubs.

[Caitlynne]

In first or second chair, I would never consider 2C or 4S for more than a yoctosecond.

 

There are 5 losers and 14 HCP. 5 losers is too many for 2C. What's more, I think you really have to have substantially more HCP than 14 - if you don't partner can never judge when it is right to defend if the opponents get frisky. (In fact, they may very well make whatever they bid!) In general, I think 19 HCP would be the absolute minimum for a 2C opening (at least as far as what is typically envisioned by experienced players).

 

4S is wrong since there are many hands that produce a virtually ironclad slam on which partner will pass - e.g., xxxx, AKx, Kxx, xxx or Qx, Axx, KJxx, Jxxx. For this reason, I would be hesitant to consider 4S even in third or fourth seat.

 

1S seems right in most any widely played system - though I would not quibble too much with a 1C opening in a strong club system like Precision.

[notproven]

Open 1♠. You have the shape and strength, and the rebid problems are minor because you have so much offense.

 

Opening 2♣ is a travesty. First, the classic definition of that bid includes "4 defensive tricks". This hand isn't even close, because you can't count defensive tricks in a long suit at full value. The defensive component becomes crucial when deciding whether to saw off a high level sacrifice.

 

As for NAMYATS, there is a system where you open 3NT instead if 4 of a minor. The downside is that it's complicated (a lot of responses to investigate a possible slam) and it gives up the gambling 3NT.

[Cyberyeti]

 

4S is wrong since there are many hands that produce a virtually ironclad slam on which partner will pass - e.g., xxxx, AKx, Kxx, xxx or Qx, Axx, KJxx, Jxxx. For this reason, I would be hesitant to consider 4S even in third or fourth seat.

 

There are not a lot of these hands but there are some, this is counterbalanced by the hands where partner doesn't have much, and it's in fact the opps' hand in hearts with LHO holding a good hand and you give him much more of a problem by getting 4♠ in first. I'm easy with 1 or 4 in 3rd.

 

It's not standard, but I'd consider agreeing to open strong 2s in 4th seat if you are used to them rather than the more usual intermediate.

[neilkaz]

Requirements for 2♣ here in 2/1 land may be a bit more stringent that in Acol land but anyhow, a good rule of thumb is to look for reasons to not open 2♣ rather than to look for reasons to stretch to open 2♣

[Liversidge]

a good rule of thumb is to look for reasons to not open 2♣ rather than to look for reasons to stretch to open 2♣

 

That's where I am at as of now!

[johnu]

Requirements for 2♣ here in 2/1 land may be a bit more stringent that in Acol land

 

LOL, basically there is no requirement in the ACBL except that opener thinks his hand is strong, whether anybody else agrees or not. No point count requirement, no quick trick requirement, no trick taking requirement. There is a requirement that you have 13 cards.

 

As a practical matter, good players do have standards because their partners expect them to have something really good.

[neilkaz]

LOL, basically there is no requirement in the ACBL except that opener thinks his hand is strong, whether anybody else agrees or not. No point count requirement, no quick trick requirement, no trick taking requirement. There is a requirement that you have 13 cards.

This is true but I am talking about generally accepted bidding standards. 8 or even 8.5 hoped for tricks isn't enough for most at least here in my part of ACBL land.

[maartenxq]

1st/2nd seat, 1♠, 3rd seat I have much less of a problem with 4♠, there is a pretty narrow selection of hands where 6 makes but partner can't open.

 

Your problems aren't over, what are you going to do over 2♣ or 2♥ from partner ?

If p can say 2 C or H problems are over. U bid 3 S fixing suit and ask p to start cueing. I wi

[maartenxq]

opening 2 clubs shows more than what's required to make game. it shows a lot of defence, essentially plenty of points outside your long suit.

 

as for 4 spades, that's a pre-empt. it should be a hand lacking the defence for a 1 opener (different kettle of fish in 3rd/4th).

 

as others have said, it's basically a 1S 3S rebid hand.

You can play 2 ♣- anything 4♠promises hands like this. Unorthodox not without risk but p knows he can count on lots of tricks and point shortage.

[Liversidge]

8 or even 8.5 hoped for tricks isn't enough for most at least here in my part of ACBL land.

Often the advice in references just says "23 HCP balanced or 9+ playing tricks". My partner and I have agreed 9 for majors, 10 for minors. Is that sensible? It seems logical (need to be within one trick of game)

[sfi]

Really helpful, everyone. I now have a very different mindset. Until now I have had to resist the impulse to open 2♣ with 9 playing tricks in a minor or 8 PTs in a major holding AKQxxxx, but now have a better understanding about why, and can discuss it with partner. We need to spend more time studying modern Acol rebids - for example, the meaning (length and strength) of jump rebids after 1 level and 2 level response) that convey what I have been wanting to show with the 2♣ bid, but a lot more efficiently, allowing room for us to describe our hands at a low level.

 

Indeed. Broadly speaking, opening 2C is a bad thing for your side. You are a level higher and you haven't started to describe your hand's shape. Aggressive opponents will also see this as an opportunity to take further room away if they can, since they don't have to worry about constructive bidding.

 

As a result, you should have some idea of where you are heading when you open 2C, and a hand where partner can have some expectation that slam will be on with the right couple of cards. 2C works best when you have a strong one-suited hand, since you get to describe the nature of your hand next round. Two-suited hands are harder, so the hand should be really strong - not just one that will miss game if partner passes the perfect 5 count, but one that is genuinely game-forcing - to make up for what you are giving up with the opening.

 

Particularly on distributional hands, it's often right to open at the one level even on hands that might qualify for a 2C bid. It's not so likely everyone will pass if some of your strength is in distribution rather than high cards, and if you do get another chance to bid you can be much better off. Strength can be shown later in the auction (assuming there is a later) - distribution can be harder to do so.

[Cyberyeti]

If p can say 2 C or H problems are over. U bid 3 S fixing suit and ask p to start cueing. I wi

 

3♠ does not show that in my book in Acol, I think you only cue with a suitable hand, there are plenty of hands that won't cue where a slam is on. All 3♠ shows is enough to force to game and 6 spades.

[Liversidge]

3♠ does not show that in my book in Acol All 3♠ shows is enough to force to game and 6 spades.

My Acol books say likewise. Also 4♠ shows a pretty solid 7 card suit and around five losers.

[forgo]

 

1 spade is the bid. if we r non vun and

oponents are red I would consider opening 4 spades if p has passed!!

[Liversidge]

Do the criteria for opening 2♣ change with a two suited hand. For example, S AKTxx H AK D AKxxx C x has (I think) 10 playing tricks and 6 defensive tricks. Are all the fourth and fifth cards in the long suits reliable playing tricks. And the fit might turn out to be in diamonds.

[P_Marlowe]

Do the criteria for opening 2♣ change with a two suited hand. For example, S AKTxx H AK D AKxxx C x has (I think) 10 playing tricks and 6 defensive tricks. Are all the fourth and fifth cards in the long suits reliable playing tricks. And the fit might turn out to be in diamonds.

Opening 2-suited hand with 2C is problematic, the exception being, with touching suits,

and the higher ranking suit is longer.

In short, you should be wary opening a 2-suited (let alone 3-suited) hand with 2C.

In short: you need two add. rounds of bidding to show your suit, unless you have a specific

agreement set, that allowes you to show the 2-suiter.

 

With the given hand it is borderline, make it a little stronger and you have to go via 2C,

if you have 23+, getting passed out is a real issue, so is holding the spades and lots of

values in the majors.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

Opening 2-suited hand with 2C is problematic, the exception being, with touching suits,

and the higher ranking suit is longer.

In short, you should be wary opening a 2-suited (let alone 3-suited) hand with 2C.

In short: you need two add. rounds of bidding to show your suit, unless you have a specific

agreement set, that allowes you to show the 2-suiter.

 

With the given hand it is borderline, make it a little stronger and you have to go via 2C,

if you have 23+, getting passed out is a real issue, so is holding the spades and lots of

values in the majors.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

Good advice, avoid opening 2♣ on 2 suiters if you can, but some hands are just too strong.

 

Trying to get both suits in gets even worse if the opps start bidding one of the other suits strongly

[sfi]

Do the criteria for opening 2♣ change with a two suited hand. For example, S AKTxx H AK D AKxxx C x has (I think) 10 playing tricks and 6 defensive tricks. Are all the fourth and fifth cards in the long suits reliable playing tricks. And the fit might turn out to be in diamonds.

 

You're right that this hand is worth a 2C opening on values. But it is worth considering how the auction will proceed. On which auction would you be happier:

 

2C - (3H) - P - (4H)

 

or:

 

1S - (3H) - P - (4H)

 

On the second one you can double and bid 5D over anything. On the first one you risk missing a 5-3 spade fit and partner has a harder time evaluating a hand like Qxx x Qxxx xxxxx. Of course, partner needs to be aware that you might open hands this strong at the one level to think about raising to slam on a hand like this.

 

You can also construct hands where 6H or 7H is the right place to play, and you're going to struggle more to find it over a 2C opener than an auction that starts 1S - 1NT; 3D - 3H.

 

The downside is, of course, that you have to make it past the first round of the auction to catch up with your values. Sometimes this is just too big of a worry to open at the one level - teammates don't really appreciate the +230, -1430 comparisons after all.

[NickRW]

Do the criteria for opening 2♣ change with a two suited hand. For example, S AKTxx H AK D AKxxx C x has (I think) 10 playing tricks and 6 defensive tricks. Are all the fourth and fifth cards in the long suits reliable playing tricks. And the fit might turn out to be in diamonds.

 

Players who have given this much thought (and that isn't many!) tend to be more strict before opening 2C with a strong 2 suiter. The reason being that you're already opening a level higher and have 2 suits to mention - so you had better be worth all that space. Also, with a 2 suiter you have the option of opening at the one level and rebidding with a reverse. (Whereas, with a one suiter, the jump rebid in the same suit is considered strong but not forcing)

 

Another aspect which may colour your thoughts, in Acol land anyway, is are you playing traditional strong twos (which most of us have long since stopped doing, but they're a whole lot better than some people think).

 

Nick

[Liversidge]

Another aspect which may colour your thoughts, in Acol land anyway, is are you playing traditional strong twos (which most of us have long since stopped doing, but they're a whole lot better than some people think).

 

Nick

We play 3 weak 2's. We have found that the opportunity to preempt with 6 cards comes up a lot more often than hands on the cusp of opening at the 1 level or 2C level.

I understand that in Modern Acol a jump rebid of my opening suit is forcing, and game forcing after a 2 level response.

[helene_t]

After a 1 level response, opener's jump rebid is nonforcing.

[Cyberyeti]

After a 1 level response, opener's jump rebid is nonforcing.

 

And this is the source of a lot of issues in Acol. For the OP, if you see a reference to the "hand of death" or similar it's usually a good 6 card suit often with 3 cards in responder's major and strong enough that a NF rebid of 3 of your suit risks missing game.

 

eg 1♦-1♠-?

 

AQx

x

AKJxxx

AJx

[msjennifer]

One Spade in all seats and all positions.The given hand is not suited for any of the other alternatives. If Texas is being used AND the vulnerability is favorable then 4S opening bid will be in picture.

[NickRW]

And this is the source of a lot of issues in Acol. For the OP, if you see a reference to the "hand of death" or similar it's usually a good 6 card suit often with 3 cards in responder's major and strong enough that a NF rebid of 3 of your suit risks missing game.

 

eg 1♦-1♠-?

 

AQx

x

AKJxxx

AJx

 

To be fair to Acol, it is an issue in Standard and 2/1 as well, unless you invent special handling for it.

[NickRW]

We play 3 weak 2's. We have found that the opportunity to preempt with 6 cards comes up a lot more often than hands on the cusp of opening at the 1 level or 2C level.

Yes, and most people (and that includes me!) have had similar thoughts (even if the only answer they can come up with is Benji). I was just saying that the traditional Acol twos, though much scoffed at, are not as bad as some people think they are.

I understand that in Modern Acol a jump rebid of my opening suit is forcing, and game forcing after a 2 level response.

It is quite reasonable for the jump rebid to be forcing after a 2/1 response, even a traditional Acol 9+ 2/1 and especially a "modern" Acol (essentially standard) 10+ 2/1. But, though highly encouraging, it is quite passable after a one level response.