Double trouble

[wanoff]

[hv=pc=n&s=sat2ht84datcaj765&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1d1s3d(Pre-emptive)d4dpp]133|200|Overcalls - NV not ridiculous, Vul sound, WJOs[/hv]

 

Are you happy with the double of 3♦. What does it mean ?

And what now at MPs

[johnu]

The classic meaning is a responsive double showing the unbid suits. 3 hearts to the 10 is not what I would consider to be a "suit" worth mentioning, especially when you have ♠A102. I would have bid 4♦ originally.

[Tramticket]

I would have bid 4S last time.

[ggwhiz]

The double followed by 4♦ by the opener just gave them extra info to decide to dive over 4♠ when it is right.

 

I would have bid 4♠ the first time.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sat2ht84datcaj765&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1d1s3d(Pre-emptive)d4dpp]133|200|

Overcalls - NV not ridiculous, Vul sound, WJOs

Are you happy with the double of 3♦. What does it mean ?

And what now at MPs?[/hv]

After (1♦) 1♠ (3♦) ??

• Pass = Nat
• Double = NEG. Usually 4♥. But agree with wanoff that it's OK here when you can correct 4♥ to 4♠.
• 3♥ = NAT. F/1. 5+ ♥
• 3♠ = NAT.
• 3N = NAT
• 4♣ = NAT, F/1. 5+ ♣
• 4♦ = CUE. 4+ ♠
• 4♥ = FIT
• 4♠ = PRE

Now I rank

 

1. 4♠ = NAT Descriptive.
2. Double = NEG. Risky since opponents may have a double-fit in the red suits. Also, partner may read it as 4+ ♥ and 5+ ♣.
3. Pass = NAT Pusilanimous.

[nekthen]

Sorry guys but surely double is a support dbl showing 3 card support and a decent hand. Now I double again. I think its going down p but if you have a good offensive hand feel free to bid 4 spades

Its not a responsive double. That is if p had doubled on round 1. It is not a negative double, that is when it is partner who opened.

An immediate 3 spades would be same strength but with 4 card support.

[1eyedjack]

I think it a minority treatment to play support doubles after a 3 level overcall. And at a lower level it does not show extras.

[robert2734]

Support with support. Bid 4 ♠ the first time. Over 4 ♦ , you can take the sure profit by doubling or bid 4 ♠ which may not make. My guess is 4 ♠.

[notproven]

It looks as if the original double was "cards". If you check the convention cards on this site, support doubles stop at 2♠. I'd guess that South was trying to get a Drury-like response from North (bid game with extras, pass with a hand that North wouldn't have opened in first seat). I definitely wouldn't call this double responsive. Therefore, I'd guess that South would then pass 4♦.

 

Pure conjecture, don't assume I have the slightest idea what was in South's head.

 

Not how I'd bid with an unfamiliar partner. I'd bid 4♠ over 3♦.

[francosca]

Sorry guys but surely double is a support dbl showing 3 card support and a decent hand. Now I double again. I think its going down p but if you have a good offensive hand feel free to bid 4 spades

Its not a responsive double. That is if p had doubled on round 1. It is not a negative double, that is when it is partner who opened.

An immediate 3 spades would be same strength but with 4 card support.

I agree.... it is a support DBL.... and to the comment that follows the 3♦ was not an over-call, but a preemptive raise of opener bid

[Caitlynne]

There are two alternative ways to play the double of 3D that are currently in vogue. One is a "responsive double" - showing values and interest in the unbid suits. The other is a "cue bid double" showing good values for the level in combination with good 3 card support for overcaller's suit.

 

If you play the responsive double, you cannot double 3D. That strongly suggests 4 hearts, about 10+ HCP, and a doubleton spade. That is not even close to what you have in two respects: (1) you don't have four hearts (and not even 3 good ones) and (2) you have genuine and good spade support. So, playing responsive doubles, you have to bid some number of spades - probably 3S but 4S is not unreasonable.

 

If you play the cue bid double, you have an ideal hand for it: good 3 card support and good values to support the auction level (i.e., the 3-level). And now, you have an easy bid: Double, giving partner the option to bid game or defend.

 

If you play responsive doubles, you are toast now - you are guessing - and, indeed, you had cooked your goose at your first turn.

[miamijd]

After (1♦) 1♠ (3♦) ??

• Pass = Nat
• Double = NEG. Usually 4♥. But agree with wanoff that it's OK here when you can correct 4♥ to 4♠.
• 3♥ = NAT. F/1. 5+ ♥
• 3♠ = NAT.
• 3N = NAT
• 4♣ = NAT, F/1. 5+ ♣
• 4♦ = CUE. 4+ ♠
• 4♥ = FIT
• 4♠ = PRE

Now I rank

 

1. 4♠ = NAT Descriptive.
2. Double = NEG. Risky since opponents may have a double-fit in the red suits. Also, partner may read it as 4+ ♥ and 5+ ♣.
3. Pass = NAT Pusilanimous.

 

A number of your descriptions are not correct

 

Double is not "negative" here. Standard expert is responsive.

 

A 4d cue bid does not promise 4 pieces. You can't be that precise in high level competitive auctions. 3 card support is fine. This hand almost qualifies but not quite. I wish we had three diamonds At least then we know partner has at most 1. This way they are apt to be 2-2.

 

4S is in no way preemptive. You never preempt over a preempt. A good rule of thumb that actually works is this: if the bid on your right was strong, a jump by you is weak (unless it has a conventional meaning). If the bid on your right was weak, then a jump by you is strong. Here 4s is a good hand but not as good as 4d

 

I would bid 4s the first time if playing responsive doubles, because there's no good way to invite game and because I have no clue what to do over 4d at MPs. At least I give the opponents the last guess. I know exactly what to do if they bid 5d.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[miamijd]

I agree.... it is a support DBL.... and to the comment that follows the 3♦ was not an over-call, but a preemptive raise of opener bid

 

Support Xs are at the level of 2h or lower and are always made by opener to show 3 pieces in responders suit. They are never made by responder, over caller, or advancer

 

Some folks play this X as dual meaning. That is, it's either responsive or else a good hand (not good enough force game) with three card support. That treatment works well, UNLESS the opponents are rude enough to keep bidding.

[MrAce]

I read a lot of poor understanding of support doubles in this topic.

I strongly suggest those who thinks this is support dbl to read what Miamijd wrote.

[1eyedjack]

I agree.... it is a support DBL....

Feel free to edit the Wikipedia page. That is one of the beauties of the collaborative principle behind Wikipedia.

[kenberg]

I'm fine with the double of 3D. In theory, it shows hearts and clubs. That's if you have checked responsive doubles on your card. But, as already noted, if X is followed be P-3H-P you can bid 3S. Imo, that would be ideal. (1D)-1S-(3D)-4S could be misleading. You could do that with four or five spades, some shape, and not much else. Now that they have come in with 4D, I can no longer do as I had hoped. The fifth club convinces me to bid on.

 

Now, if they go on to 5D (they might, who knows), my double will be much clearer in meaning than if I had bid an original 4S.

 

Anyway, the question was what do I do on the auction as given. I bid 4S.

[GrahamJson]

I guess I am old fashioned, but I would have bid 4S first time around, particularly with an unfamiliar partner. It puts maximum pressure on oppo, and you will know what to do if they go to the five level. Partner should not bid on in front of you unless he has a very distributional hand.

 

As Terrence Reece said "A pre-empt that is known to be weak is a blunt sword." Playing 4S as a pre-empt in this position merely tells oppo that it is safe for them to go on.

[mdgraham]

It's only a support double if you have agreed this with partner; no mention is made of this agreement so presumably it doesn't exist. So double just shows cards, hopefully 13 of them and hopefully some with pictures on them.

 

The problem now is that you have no idea of the kind of hand that partner can have. 4S could be playable or just plain silly, and 4D could be close to making or down a couple. Which is one argument for bidding 4S directly - you have made your decision (aka "guess") and the opponents now have to decide what to do. Doubling 5D, if it is bid, looks reasonable.

 

However, that is not now the problem. It would help to know partner's overcalling style here. 4S is entirely reasonable at this point, but if partner is known to make, er, enterprising overcalls, it may well be right to pass. Give partner KJxxx Kxxx xx xx, and on BBO we have all seen players bid 1S on less, 4D could be close.

[gszes]

bidding 4s right away just does not make much sense since that kind of bid is preemptive. Starting with the neg x and later raising spades at least lets p know you have power for your bidding and who knows where that kind of information might lead us. the bidding will give p a strong clue as to how to play the hand and their HCP rate to be positionally improved while ours remain unaffected by postion. This makes a game "gamble" a much better proposition opposite a minimum overcall. If the opps do bid 5d it might be nice for p to have a say in the proceddings which they will never have if we bgin with 4s immediately.

[kenberg]

I guess I am old fashioned, but I would have bid 4S first time around, particularly with an unfamiliar partner. It puts maximum pressure on oppo, and you will know what to do if they go to the five level. Partner should not bid on in front of you unless he has a very distributional hand.

 

As Terrence Reece said "A pre-empt that is known to be weak is a blunt sword." Playing 4S as a pre-empt in this position merely tells oppo that it is safe for them to go on.

 

I remember that phrase. If I recall correctly, he was speaking of agreements such as a player never having an outside Ace when pre-empting. I agree with reese on that. Not that TR cares one way or another whether I agree with him.

 

But here I think, after (1D)-1S-(3D) that I would like to indicate, if possible, that while 4S may be right it is also very possible that no one can make 4 of anything. Doubling and correcting 3H to 3S should do it. After this, partner can raise to 4S if his hand is suitable. He would be much more reluctant to do so if I just bid 3S.

 

So that's why I choose X over 3D instead of 3S over 3D, but of course you are speaking of 4S over 3D. As mentioned above, it does indeed depend on just what can be expected of partner for his 1S bid. Certainly others out there overcall 1S on hands where I would not, but I think there are hands where I would overcal 1S and still not have much of a play for ten tricks here. So that is my main reason for not bidding 4S right away. But I also think I would like a fourth spade to to bid 4S. I have often expressed skepticism about LOTT, and I make no claim that we know the total number of spades we have here or the total number of diamonds they have, but I still would like a fourth spade for my immediate jump to 4S.

 

So then why not pass or X the 4D? I like that fifth club on offense and I dislike it on defense.

[GrahamJson]

For what it is worth, Robson and Segal in "Partnership bidding in bridge" use 4C (over 3D) as a "fit non jump" showing this sort of hand. Sally Horton, in "Double trouble" uses a double after a raise by responder to show any hand that has no clear bid. Usually the two other suits but can have support.

[miamijd]

bidding 4s right away just does not make much sense since that kind of bid is preemptive. Starting with the neg x and later raising spades at least lets p know you have power for your bidding and who knows where that kind of information might lead us. the bidding will give p a strong clue as to how to play the hand and their HCP rate to be positionally improved while ours remain unaffected by postion. This makes a game "gamble" a much better proposition opposite a minimum overcall. If the opps do bid 5d it might be nice for p to have a say in the proceddings which they will never have if we bgin with 4s immediately.

 

4S is only preemptive if 3D is a limit raise. Assuming 3D is weak, 4S is NOT preemptive. It's a hand that wants to bid game but is not strong enough to bid 4D.

 

If the bid to your right was preemptive, a jump by you is strong.

[sfi]

Are you happy with the double of 3♦. What does it mean ?

And what now at MPs

 

Miamijd covered the meaning of a double fairly well. It typically shows values (say a good 10+ at this level) and 4+ cards in the other two suits. Particularly if you have minimal high-card strength you would want spade tolerance as well, so you have some assurance of a playable spot.

 

Doubling with this hand is just asking for trouble. You might be able to convince partner you have actual spade support if you get a chance to convert at the three or four level, but you may not. What will you do if LHO bids 5D and it is passed around to you, or if your partner bids spades again? Even if you do get to show three spades, partner is entitled to play you for at least 3-4-2-4 shape and may decide to go looking for slam with a presumed double fit (you're not going to enjoy any bid from partner over a 4S correction).

 

It's much better to support spades directly, and your options are 3S, 4S, and a cue bid. 3S could be right, but three aces suggest bidding more. 4S is typically a hand with more distribution and weaker in high cards. Not preemptive exactly, but descriptive. A cue could get you too high, but it does show the general nature of your hand - 3+ spades, high card values, and some defence.

 

It's generally a good idea to be prepared to overbid by a level to show a fit in competition. So 4D looks clear.

 

As to what do I do now? Prepare my excuses - I've successfully forced myself to take the last guess and it was entirely avoidable.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

double is ok, but discuss with partner, if you can use 3H to show a fit,

inv.+.

 

Now I would pass it out.

 

Double showed inv. values, but not a fit, partner was not interested, I dont

believe we can make 4S, and it is not clear, that we could make 3S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[beowulf]

4S could be playable or just plain silly, and 4D could be close to making or down a couple.

It's hard to imagine any 1♠ overcall that doesn't have some play for game opposite your hand (three aces and three trumps!). Chances of getting 4!DX down more than two are probably small.