After 1M -2C

[Phil]

Sorry I'd set this up as a poll but I'm mobile.

 

1M is 5+ (but never 5332).

 

Here's your challenge: "Assuming 8 baggers are thrown out, my partner and I can discover all hand patterns at a maximum call of ____"

[Kungsgeten]

7420 with void other major is resolved at 4D. Otherwise 4C is the highest bid (7420, 7411 and 6520, others are resolved at 3NT or lower).

[awm]

7420 with void other major is resolved at 4D. Otherwise 4C is the highest bid (7420 and 7411, others are resolved at 3NT or lower).

 

I suspect you are not including 7-5, 6-6, and 7-6 hands in this calculation. He only excluded 8-card suits.

[Phil]

I suspect you are not including 7-5, 6-6, and 7-6 hands in this calculation. He only excluded 8-card suits.

 

Ok exclude these too.

[phoenix214]

Unless you do some fancy magic 4C

[straube]

Agree with 4C. I think Zelandakh's 1M denies 5332 and he uses 1N as GI+ relay.

[Free]

Without having to distinguish between max and min? 3NT

[straube]

5422 3

5431 6

6421 6

6430 6

7420 6

7411 3

 

5440 3

 

6322 3

7222 1

6331 3

7321 6

7330 3

 

5521 6

5530 6

6511 3

6520 6

 

70

 

1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89 =10 steps

 

After 1N asking

 

2C-1

2D-2

2H-3

2S-4

2N-5

3C-6

3D-7

3H-8

3S-9

3N-10

 

In practice, you're likely to use symmetric structures that have frequently occurring patterns resolve at 3D or even 3C which would allow for a control ask. If so, your less frequently occurring patterns (6520, 7420) would run past 3N.

[straube]

I've been thinking of revising our relay structure (2C asks) as the single-suited resolve too high. Currently we use

 

2D-5332, C or any 5440

2H-D

2S-single-suited, 6+

etc-OM

 

Thinking of treating 5440 as 5431

 

2D-5332, C or 5D

.....2S-4C

.....2N-5C

.....3C-5332

.....etc-5D

2H-single-suited, 6+

2S-4D

etc-OM

 

Anyone think this is better? Other ideas?

[Phil]

I have two goals and tell me if you think I'm nuts.

 

1. I'm trying like heck to avoid opener rebidding 2N if 3N is a likely spot. Same goes for opener ever bidding a natural side suit first.

 

2. I'm not sure I mind shoving weird hand patterns into structures that take us past 4C IF we get the tradeoff of the more frequent patterns getting resolved at lower levels.

 

So right now it looks like after 2C:

 

A 2D =high side or 5440s

B 2H =middle side

C 2S = low side

D 2N = skewed patterns like 6511 or 7411

E 3C = 6M (331)

F 3D and higher: 73's

 

After a side suit is known, R asks hi/lo/equal short. For this structure, 6M (322) is considered two suited.

[Phil]

In addition, another goal is to get able to resolve major suiters as low as possible because 1M is 14+ unless the hand contains the other major and then its 10+ but it would be nice if we don't have to have a 13 count for 2C. The idea is that if opener is 10-12 to be able to put on the brakes in 2 or 3 of a major. A 2M opener (10-13) gets tricky when you have the other major.

 

Last, I'm trying to make this as symmetric as possible however 55's seem to be an odd duck since you only need to include these within the higher ranking suit.

[Kungsgeten]

This is just an idea, which I think could work in your system, and will make the relays easier: Use the 2♦ as 10-13 with both majors (and possibly some other meaning if you're into multi-style bids). You could define it further by making 2♦ "anti-flannery" (5+♠ and 4+♥) and 10-13. In that case I would consider the following Kaplan Inversion thing, after the 1♥ opening:

 

1♥ (10+ with 5+♥ and 4♠ or 14+ with 5+♥)---

1♠ = Negative NT (0--4 spades) or GF relay.

1NT = 5+♠, F1.

2/1 = GF.

 

1♥--1♠;

1NT = "Gazzilli". 4♠ 10--17 or 18+ without 4♠.

2♣♦ = 4+ minor, 14--17. 2♠ relay.

2♥ = Single-suiter, 14--17. 2♠ relay.

2♠ = 4♠, 18+. 2NT relay.

2NT = 18+ with 5+♦. 3♣ relay.

 

1♥--1♠; 1NT---

2♣ = GF vs 18+ hand.

2♦ = Weak with 4♠. Opener's 2♥ is 18+ NF with 5+♥, 2♠ 10--17 and higher GF.

2♥ = Weak. Heart preference.

2♠ = Weak. 3♠, short hearts and both minors.

2NT = Weak. 5-5 minors and short hearts.

3♣♦ = Weak. 6+ minor and short hearts.

 

1♥--1♠; 1NT--2♣;

2♦ = 18+ with 4+ minor. 2♥ relay and then:

...2♠ = 4 clubs.

...2NT = 5 clubs.

...3♣+ = 4 diamonds.

2♥ = 5+♥, 4♠, 10--15. Now 2♠ is to play and 2NT is GF relay.

2♠ = 5+♥, 4♠, (15)16--17. 3♥ is to play, 2NT GF relay.

2NT+ = 6+♥, single-suiter 18+.

 

 

The 5440's a problematic here, but otherwise it should have you covered.

[Phil]

This is just an idea, which I think could work in your system, and will make the relays easier: Use the 2♦ as 10-13 with both majors (and possibly some other meaning if you're into multi-style bids). You could define it further by making 2♦ "anti-flannery" (5+♠ and 4+♥) and 10-13. In that case I would consider the following Kaplan Inversion thing, after the 1♥ opening:

 

1♥ (10+ with 5+♥ and 4♠ or 14+ with 5+♥)---

1♠ = Negative NT (0--4 spades) or GF relay.

1NT = 5+♠, F1.

2/1 = GF.

 

1♥--1♠;

1NT = "Gazzilli". 4♠ 10--17 or 18+ without 4♠.

2♣♦ = 4+ minor, 14--17. 2♠ relay.

2♥ = Single-suiter, 14--17. 2♠ relay.

2♠ = 4♠, 18+. 2NT relay.

2NT = 18+ with 5+♦. 3♣ relay.

 

1♥--1♠; 1NT---

2♣ = GF vs 18+ hand.

2♦ = Weak with 4♠. Opener's 2♥ is 18+ NF with 5+♥, 2♠ 10--17 and higher GF.

2♥ = Weak. Heart preference.

2♠ = Weak. 3♠, short hearts and both minors.

2NT = Weak. 5-5 minors and short hearts.

3♣♦ = Weak. 6+ minor and short hearts.

 

1♥--1♠; 1NT--2♣;

2♦ = 18+ with 4+ minor. 2♥ relay and then:

...2♠ = 4 clubs.

...2NT = 5 clubs.

...3♣+ = 4 diamonds.

2♥ = 5+♥, 4♠, 10--15. Now 2♠ is to play and 2NT is GF relay.

2♠ = 5+♥, 4♠, (15)16--17. 3♥ is to play, 2NT GF relay.

2NT+ = 6+♥, single-suiter 18+.

 

 

The 5440's a problematic here, but otherwise it should have you covered.

 

Somewhat close to the current structure.

 

1H 1S is KI. 1N rebid is 45 or any awkward 17+

 

Decided that relayer needs true GF or a fit for a major. 10-12 with fit breaks relay after 1M 2C 2D (other major).

[benlessard]

If 1H is never 5332.

 

1H--??

 

1S relay can be anything

1NT = 5+ Spades

2m = non forcing

 

1H-1S-?

 

1NT= clubs-----2C=pref,2D art GF,2H=pref,3C/3H inv. Note that if you make a pref opener will bid on with 18+

2C=diamonds (same pattern but 2S is art GF

2D=6H (2S is art GF)

2H = min with 4S+5H

2S = 15-17 with 4S+5H

2NT = H+S 18+

 

 

1H-2m will be somewhat rare but I dont think having 2 GF relay is optimal.

 

Possible to use

 

1H-2C as

 

to play 2D

inv raise to 2H

GF with D

 

1H-2D = GF with clubs.

[Phil]

I'm not sure 1H 1S as a relay (or maybe negatice) works with our,methods since 1H is a one round force.

[nullve]

I have two goals and tell me if you think I'm nuts.

 

1. I'm trying like heck to avoid opener rebidding 2N if 3N is a likely spot. Same goes for opener ever bidding a natural side suit first.

 

2. I'm not sure I mind shoving weird hand patterns into structures that take us past 4C IF we get the tradeoff of the more frequent patterns getting resolved at lower levels.

http://www.syskon.nu/system/002_fallenius_welland_2-1.pdf (pp. 20-25)

[Zelandakh]

Agree with 4C. I think Zelandakh's 1M denies 5332 and he uses 1N as GI+ relay.

This is correct except that it is 1M+1, so the relay is 1♠ over a 1♥ opening. In practise, it equates to sym+1 over a 1♥ opening and sym+2 after 1♠, although the exact method used is not standard symmetric but an equivalent one that I find more logical. The basic structure for 1♥ is below (hopefully no errors, I typed this out manually fairly quickly).

 

1♥ - 1♠

=======

1NT = min without 4 spades (then 2♣ GF relay transposes to the 2♦+ rebids below)

2♣ = 4+ spades

... - 2♦ = GF relay

... - ... - 2♥ = min (then 2♠ relay transposes to the 2NT+ continuations below)

... - ... - 2♠ = 5+ spades or 45(40)

... - ... - 2NT = 45xy

... - ... - ... - 3♣ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 4513

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 4522

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 4531

... - ... - 3♣ = 4603/4612

... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 4603

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 4612

... - ... - 3♦ = 4621

... - ... - 3♥ = 4630

... - ... - 3♠+ = 47xy

2♦ = 4+ clubs, GF

... - 2♥ = relay

... - ... - 2♠ = 5+ clubs

... - ... - ... - 2NT = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♣ = 0535/1525

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 0535

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 1525

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 2515

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 3505

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 6+ hearts

... - ... - 2NT = x5y4

... - ... - ... - 3♣ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 1534

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 2524

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 3514

... - ... - 3♣ = 0634/1624

... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 0634

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 1624

... - ... - 3♦ = 2614

... - ... - 3♥ = 3604

... - ... - 3♠+ = x7y4

2♥ = one-suited

... - 2♠ = relay

... - ... - 2NT = 3 spades

... - ... - ... - 3♣ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♦ = 3 clubs

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 3613

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT+ = 3703

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 3 diamonds

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 3631

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣+ = 3730

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 3622

... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 3712

... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣+ = 3721

... - ... - 3♣ = 3 diamonds

... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 3 clubs

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 1633

... - ... - ... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣+ = 0733

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 2632

... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 1732

... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣+ = 2731

... - ... - 3♦ = 3 clubs

... - ... - ... - 3♥ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠ = 2623

... - ... - ... - ... - 3NT = 1723

... - ... - ... - ... - 4♣+ = 2713

... - ... - 3♥ = 8+ hearts, short spades

... - ... - 3♠ = 2722

... - ... - 3NT+ = 8+ hearts, short minor

2♠ = 5+ diamonds

... - 2NT = relay

... - ... - 3♣ = 0553/1552

... - ... - ... - 3♦ = relay

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♥ = 0553

... - ... - ... - ... - 3♠+ = 1552

... - ... - 3♦ = 2551

... - ... - 3♥ = 3550

... - ... - 3♠+ = 6+ hearts

2NT = x54y, GF

... - 3♣ = relay

... - ... - 3♦ = 1543

... - ... - 3♥ = 2542

... - ... - 3♠+ = 3541

3♣ = 0643/1642, GF

... - 3♦ = relay

... - ... - 3♥ = 0643

... - ... - 3♠+ = 1642

3♦ = 2641, GF

3♥ = 3640, GF

3♠+ = x74y, GF

 

As you can see, a number of sequences end in 3♦ so this could easily be improved upon if you were just trying to minimise the worst case. This is a dubious goal though, as you often gain more by making the common shapes efficient than by keeping the rare ones a step lower.

 

A sensible person would also redistribute the hands - 1♥ has more space than 1♠ so hands with 5-5 in the majors should logically not be opened 1♠. Sometimes practical considerations force other (sub-optimal) solutions to be used.