simple bidding situation?

[Zelandakh]

What do you suggest he bids ? he has nice intermediates but Qx/Ax and an indifferent suit with no club stop.

2♠ springs to mind unless you are going to demand 3 of them for some reason. If you do demand 3 then the only choice would probably be 2NT, which perforce cannot promise a solid stopper (like RR's 2NT).

[wank]

2♠ springs to mind unless you are going to demand 3 of them for some reason. If you do demand 3 then the only choice would probably be 2NT, which perforce cannot promise a solid stopper (like RR's 2NT).

 

yes 2 spades shows 3 as far as i'm concerned. this hand can bid 2nt perfectly happily. qx is a holding that needs to be declarer. if you had a small doubleton club and the points elsewhere, it would be 3C with this shape (a better question would be what do you with 2524 and a small doubleton diamond after 1h-1s-2c-2h and the answer would still be 3D - partner shouldn't have preference for clubs and a hand too bad to accept the invitation or he'd pass 2C, e.g. pass with a 4243 6 count).

[MrAce]

2 NT and 2♥ rebids are very close calls. If you bid 2♥ and pd has this you should take it as a flaw of your style. If you bid 2 NT like me and find pd with 12-13 and go down in 2 NT, you should also take it as flaw of your style. Both are fine with me.

 

What I disagree is the suggestion of reopening with 15 against the simple preference, even with all the pips. I'd rather bid 2 NT with this 10 vs an opener compared to bidding 2 NT by opener against simple preference 2♥ by partner. Of course in forums 2♥ will represent 6-10 hcp, where in real life it is actually also made with hands less than 6 hcp, particularly if repsonder has 3 card fit.

[Phil]

I would open the North hand 1N.

[wank]

2 NT and 2♥ rebids are very close calls. If you bid 2♥ and pd has this you should take it as a flaw of your style. If you bid 2 NT like me and find pd with 12-13 and go down in 2 NT, you should also take it as flaw of your style. Both are fine with me.

 

What I disagree is the suggestion of reopening with 15 against the simple preference, even with all the pips. I'd rather bid 2 NT with this 10 vs an opener compared to bidding 2 NT by opener against simple preference 2♥ by partner. Of course in forums 2♥ will represent 6-10 hcp, where in real life it is actually also made with hands less than 6 hcp, particularly if repsonder has 3 card fit.

 

but on this auction responder's considerably more likely to have his full 6+ quota. the reasons for responding on crap are 1) scared of opps bidding spades (no) 2) hate hearts (no) 3) long spades , might make game on skimpy values (very unlikely to have 6 now. 5 ok, yes maybe)

[Cyberyeti]

but on this auction responder's considerably more likely to have his full 6+ quota. the reasons for responding on crap are 1) scared of opps bidding spades (no) 2) hate hearts (no) 3) long spades , might make game on skimpy values (very unlikely to have 6 now. 5 ok, yes maybe)

 

So am I expected to pass 1♥ with a 4126 5-6 count ? I can easily hate hearts here but have to give false preference.

[wank]

So am I expected to pass 1♥ with a 4126 5-6 count ? I can easily hate hearts here but have to give false preference.

 

no, you're expected to bid 1nt over 1h. but this is irrelevant. bidding on over 1h-1s-2d-2h opposite this hand works well. you'd get to 3c.

[Cyberyeti]

no, you're expected to bid 1nt over 1h. but this is irrelevant. bidding on over 1h-1s-2d-2h opposite this hand works well. you'd get to 3c.

 

I'll bow to your knowledge of 2/1 but this seems to work really really badly when partner has a minimum hand with hearts and spades from the source material I can see.

 

Also I'd have thought 3♣ would be the normal 4SF type force unsure where to play rather than natural in this type of auction, say 5233/5224 with no club honour but enough to play game somewhere when partner shows extras with 2N.

[wank]

I'll bow to your knowledge of 2/1 but this seems to work really really badly when partner has a minimum hand with hearts and spades from the source material I can see.

 

Also I'd have thought 3♣ would be the normal 4SF type force unsure where to play rather than natural in this type of auction, say 5233/5224 with no club honour but enough to play game somewhere when partner shows extras with 2N.

 

well yeah 1nt would be a gamble on that shape and 1S is the standard bid, but i think you'd play much better part-scores on average by bidding 1nt. if partner has enough to make game, he'll reverse and no doubt be surprised when you turn up with 4 card support.

 

but for sure there's no need for 3C to be 4th suit forcing after 1H-1S-2D-2H-2NT-3C - opener's shape is pretty closely defined. responder can bid spades again to suggest playing 4 on a 5-2 fit.

[Winstonm]

Any time it is imps I think you have to show signs of life when you have it - I would make a lie and bid 3H over 2D, assuming that is an invitational bid.

[kenrexford]

I'll bow to your knowledge of 2/1 but this seems to work really really badly when partner has a minimum hand with hearts and spades from the source material I can see.

 

Also I'd have thought 3♣ would be the normal 4SF type force unsure where to play rather than natural in this type of auction, say 5233/5224 with no club honour but enough to play game somewhere when partner shows extras with 2N.

Actually, this is a curious auction type. I hsve played (with a pro friend) that you in fact bid 1NT here with 4S/6C. If partner rebids red, 2S shows 4S/6+C.

[kenberg]

Actually, this is a curious auction type. I have played (with a pro friend) that you in fact bid 1NT here with 4S/6C. If partner rebids red, 2S shows 4S/6+C.

 

An interesting idea. I can definitely see the point.

[kenrexford]

An interesting idea. I can definitely see the point.

I find these sorts of strange gems fascinating. This is a curious example to me because I have never thought of a similar parallel in any other auction. Some strange themes recur, but this seems to be a loner.

[mike777]

OK, so I see a plurality for 2NT with a respectable minority for 2♥.

 

I was south and chose 2♥. This was passed out, and the two hands were:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk543hq5dt95caj54&n=sa9hat986daj87cq2&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=p1hp1sp2dp2hppp]266|300[/hv]

North's actual hand is remarkably similar to Cyberyeti's construction in the first reply, and game is pretty good. Ten tricks were made for +170, but 3NT was the right spot, reached by about 1/3 of the field. I was not very proud of my bidding, and felt that in particular I should have added value for the diamond spots after partner's call in that suit. I was aware that 2NT could work well, but also that it could work poorly when partner has a minimum without a spade card. -1 for pessimism I guess.

 

 

You cant open 1h planning on rebidding 2d after 1s, you can for see the rebid problems when you have a minimum hand type.

 

The solution is to open 1h and rebid 1nt or open 1nt depending on your ranges.

 

for me I would be fine to open 1h and rebid 1nt...perfect.

 

---

 

whatever you decided once you choose to rebid 2d you cannot pass 2h :)

 

btw2 as for the 4s 6c weak hand question, again opening 1nt or rebidding 1nt with opener's hand solves the problem.

 

I realize this is an old fashion idea but the whole problem on this hand was rebidding 2d. A problem that can be forseen.

[jogs]

I rank

1. 2♥ = NAT. Slight underbid unless you are playing Gazzilli
2. 2N = NAT. Overbid.
3. 3♥ = NAT. Overbid,
4. Pass = NAT. Inadvisable, especially at MPs.

 

Then put me up for 2♥. Only 2 points in partner's suit. 2NT is a clear overbid. 3♥ is an insane overbid. Shows 4/3 in spades/hearts. And the ♣J would be better in any of the other 3 suits.

[johnu]

I would open the North hand 1N.

 

Mediocre red suits, honors in the doubletons, the right point count for a 1NT opening. I would expect most experienced 2/1 players to open 1NT. On the other hand, you wouldn't have this interesting thread if you opened 1NT.

 

The complementary auction (change a small spade in South to a small club)

 

1♥ 1NT

2♦ ???

 

leads to a similar problem for South. On this auction, you are more likely to get a spade lead while if you open 1NT, the auction would be

 

1NT 3NT

[Phil]

On the other hand, you wouldn't have this interesting thread if you opened 1NT.

 

I prefer to leave the interesting bridge problems for my opponents :P

[billw55]

I like the idea of 1NT on the north cards.

 

Today I was dealt a hand similar to the north hand above. This time it was

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqhkjt54d96caj62]160|160[/hv]

 

Also IMPs, both vul. Do you open a 15-17 1NT in first seat? Or is the ♦xx a deterrent?

[kenrexford]

I like the idea of 1NT on the north cards.

 

Today I was dealt a hand similar to the north hand above. This time it was

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqhkjt54d96caj62]160|160[/hv]

 

Also IMPs, both vul. Do you open a 15-17 1NT in first seat? Or is the ♦xx a deterrent?

 

With 2542, you can predict 1H-1S-2D and a problem.

 

With 2524, 1H-1S-2C does give partner the option of 2D, but that is not a good dolution. 2D does not say, "I have 10 HCP."

 

So, same problem.

 

The 1NT solution works when you are semi balanced, but the real problem is that a jump shift is GF, meaning that a new suit rebid is 10 to about 17 or so when unbalanced. That's a huge range. Imagine the insanity of opening 2D showing 10 to 17 or so and 5H/4D or more. The range would be absurd, and yet that is what natural has.

 

Intermediate 2-level openings would alleviate this. E.g., 2D heart diamond, 2H heart club, and 2S spade diamond, all 10 to 13, maybe, such that a rebid is sound (14 to 17?). No one wants to give up weak twos, but this is a hidden cost to weak twos, wild ass ranges for new suit rebids.

 

If standard and 2/1 bidders would just use the pattern problem solution from strong club systems to solve the range problems, natural bidding would, imo, be better and easier.

[mike777]

I like the idea of 1NT on the north cards.

 

Today I was dealt a hand similar to the north hand above. This time it was

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqhkjt54d96caj62]160|160[/hv]

 

Also IMPs, both vul. Do you open a 15-17 1NT in first seat? Or is the ♦xx a deterrent?

 

basically yes, 1nt or 1h then 1nt

I can live with either esp if we are permitted to not open bal 12 counts. in first and second seat.

 

however switch your h and spades and I would open 1s and rebid 2c over 1nt as tht would allow conventions now by responder

[vitorlopes]

Clear 2♥. If partner has a non-minimum hand (15+) will continue bidding.

[kenrexford]

Good reason to not courtesy correct with garbage, eh?

 

As an aside, there might be good reason to consider a forcing 1NT by Opener after 1H-1S. This could be in a curious structure.

 

Suppose Opener always rebids 2C with 5332 types, weak. 2D by Opener could show, perhaps, a light red two suiter, 2H a light club two suiter.

 

1N, then, would show, typically, greater length in hearts or a tweener strength hand. If Responder does the usual 2C relay, Opener's calls could be fairly simple, but sexy could be added. Maybe a 2D rebid after 2C shows a sixth heart , 2H a club suit, 2S reds. Just thinking out loud, but it seems like a forcing 1N by Opener could be nice.

[Phil]

 

As an aside, there might be good reason to consider a forcing 1NT by Opener after 1H-1S. This could be in a curious structure.

 

I play this in one partnership since 1M is never 5332. We play it as Gaz which gives us one other weak hand type.

[mike777]

Good reason to not courtesy correct with garbage, eh?

 

As an aside, there might be good reason to consider a forcing 1NT by Opener after 1H-1S. This could be in a curious structure.

 

Suppose Opener always rebids 2C with 5332 types, weak. 2D by Opener could show, perhaps, a light red two suiter, 2H a light club two suiter.

 

1N, then, would show, typically, greater length in hearts or a tweener strength hand. If Responder does the usual 2C relay, Opener's calls could be fairly simple, but sexy could be added. Maybe a 2D rebid after 2C shows a sixth heart , 2H a club suit, 2S reds. Just thinking out loud, but it seems like a forcing 1N by Opener could be nice.

 

 

There is another alternative, given a rather old fashion style....play a rebid of 2 of a minor as showing extras and promising a rebid unless responder passes, rebids 2s or bids game. This puts the problem hand back on opener when they have a minimum hand type after 1h=1s

 

The options are:

1) pass the hand in the first place

2) rebid 2s

3) rebid 2h

4)rebid 1nt

 

 

as always you need to have your rebid prepared with these hand types before you open :)