What is this double?

[dickiegera]

[hv=d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1np2c3cdp]133|100[/hv]

 

This was East's hand.

 

2 Clubs right or wrong was intended to be garbage stayman.

Would 2NT transfer to diamonds have been a better bid?

West was 2-4-3-4 distribution.

What should East do now? TEAM GAME

 

[hv=pc=n&e=sj76hqt54dt96542c]133|100[/hv]

[Stefan_O]

What is this double?

 

Well, that's easy --- for penalties! :)

 

 

What should East do now? TEAM GAME

 

That one is more tricky... :)

If "garbage stayman" is part of your agreements, it seems 3♦ should now show such a hand.

If it's not, you should not use 2♣ in the first place.

 

West was 2-4-3-4 distribution.

 

Additionally, it seems doubtful, if West should Double at all when he indeed has a 4-card major after responder's Stayman.

Obviously depends on suit-qualities and vuln, too...

[Tryggolaf]

Transfering to diamonds seems safer than bidding Stayman since you're virtually certain to have a ♦-fit (unless your partner fancies opening 1NT with a singleton). Staymaning is a gamble: you either get lucky in 2♦/2♥ or end up in 2♠ in the Moysian-fit.

 

It's not at all obvious that the double is a penalty double. I'd interpret it as a take-out double: preferably (443)2 and in an unlikely case (335)2 with a hand willing to play on the 3-level and/or defend 3♣x. Regardless of whether the double is penalty/take-out, I would bid 3♦ with East. I won't take the risk of seeing the opponents make a doubled partscore at IMPs.

[Stefan_O]

It's not at all obvious that the double is a penalty double. I'd interpret it as a take-out double.

 

Really?

I think that's an uncommon minority view...

[Tryggolaf]

Really?

I think that's an uncommon minority view...

 

Well, I've got to add this: if you look at the auction, I'd take it as a take-out double. If I were to look at my hand, I'd take it as a penalty double. I play take-out doubles as well after 1NT - (2x) - ... Playing take-out doubles, you keep your old fashioned penalty doubles through partner's aggressive balancing.

[kenberg]

I am trying to imagine West's hand. Suppose I, as W, have five clubs and a 17 count. I know nothing about my partner's hand except that he wants to get out of NT. He might have zip in high card points. Looking at my clubs and hearing 3C on my right, I figure him for 0 clubs, or 1 if I am lucky. I plan on setting 3C how? I have a fit for him nowhere if he pulls. OK, maybe I have six clubs. Could be. My rho has seven clubs, I have six, no one else has any. Could be.

 

The auction 1NT-(P)-2C-(3C) is not terribly common but it happens. I cannot recall ever wanting, as the NT opener, to be able to double it for penalties.

 

The upshot is that if someone put a gun to my head and insisted that I attach a meaning to this double, I would say it means a worthless doubleton in clubs, four cards in both majors, and good values. That is, it is a hand where I what to compete to the 3 level and I want to be in game in a major if partner has the invit values that he might, but need not, have. If pard has the garbage hand, am willing to compete to 3M in the M of his choice, hoping for the best. Presumably in that case they can make a fair number of clubs (I have two, partner rates to be short for his garbage 2C) so there is some protection.

 

Undiscussed, I simply would never make that call. I am saying what it seems to me it should be, but I would not want my life, or my partnership harmony, to depend on getting it right.

 

Added: Moving over to E. and what to do, ouch. Looking at my non-existent club holding it seems pard is doubling for penalties. But seven clubs on my left, four on my right, is not impossible. Time to improvise. I am bidding 3D. If pard has 4=4=3=2 we will be ok. And maybe ok if he has 3=3=2=5. Anyway, I pull, and I pull to diamonds.

[ggwhiz]

I had this auction the other day in a speedball pairs and partner passed with a similar hand (but a king) for +500.

 

That was matchpoints, with this one I'm bidding 3♦.

[kenberg]

I had this auction the other day in a speedball pairs and partner passed with a similar hand (but a king) for +500.

 

That was matchpoints, with this one I'm bidding 3♦.

 

So you were the doubler. I am interested in what you had. The shape at least.

It goes against my grain to double for penalties after my 1NT opening, partner knows more about my strength than I know about his, but maybe I need to re-think.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&e=sj76hqt54dt96542c&d=w&v=0&a=1np2c3cdp?]133|200|

This was East's hand.

2 Clubs right or wrong was intended to be garbage stayman.

Would 2NT transfer to diamonds have been a better bid?

West was 2-4-3-4 distribution.

What should East do now? TEAM GAME[/hv]

• After partner's 1N opener, I like 2♣ = Stayman.
• Now I much prefer 3♦ to pass. 3♣X= is game so pass seems brave.

[silvr bull]

Without an advance agreement, it is frequently impossible to know what partner intended by his double. I ask each new partner, and sometimes remind partners I played with before, that I like a simple rule on doubles: If you have not bid, my double below 3NT is 100% takeout, except of conventional bids like Stayman or transfers. If you have bid, my double below 3NT is 100% penalty, except for simple negative double, or responsive double when they raise their own suit. That gives up the flexibility to use double to say I have some stuff here so you decide how to use it, but the rule gains clarity in otherwise ambiguous situations. I would expect opener to be closer to a max than a min and to have something like ♣AJTx. Assuming responder's use of Stayman is at least invitational, opener's double invites responder to double any runout the opps try to find. BTW, I prefer 12-14 NT open (with two way Stayman instead of transfers), and I too use 2C as an escape from a bad hand sometimes, but that seems misguided with the East hand here. In my preferred style, 2M or a jump to 3m is weak to play, and I would jump to 3D (for clarity, and for some preemption value) with the East hand.

[msjennifer]

It was not at all clever to bid 2C.Let us suppose that your LHO passes and your partner bids 2S then would you pass or bid 3D showing 4/5 in H/D ? That would presumably be game forcing in most of the partnerships.Do you really want to play in 2S with an unknown quality of spades with partner? You did want to play in diamonds,did you not? Then why not make a transfer bid.?I can imagine bidding 2C with a void in Hearts.Personally I will never ever bid 2C with such a poor hand.It damages partner's faith in you.As regards the question 'what does one bid now' I will pass,having already made a bad bid,not to make any other bid as it will be taken as a forcing bid if the double was indeed a penalty double.To be fair I would pass 3 C if I was your partner with 5 carder club suit.In my opinion the double shows 4/4 in majors and asks you to bid your major suit.

[nekthen]

My partner knows I can have a bad hand with short clubs. He can pass and wait to hear my bid, presumably I will reopen with a double with majors and 3♦ with a 5 carder and a 4 card major with a club suit I will bid 3N. So partner does not have to double for take out. Therefore double is penalty and I would hope he would only do that with 5 clubs.

 

There might be a case for double to be both majors, but only if you have the agreement that garbage Stayman is not allowed which is OK with strong NT.

[1eyedjack]

I would have bid 2C (and pass 2S, of course)

[kenberg]

I try very hard to convince partners that I am not intelligent. I do this so that they will go easy on the DSI (do something intelligent) doubles.

 

In the case at hand, if my lho was so misguided as to have bid 3C on AQTxxx and partner holds KJ9x(x) I imagine the intelligent thing is to pass. If lho has KQJTxxx I imagine the intelligent thing is to bid 3D. If partner's diamonds are Qx and his hearts are Axxx probably it is intelligent to bid 3H.

 

I agree with nekthen that partner could wait to see what I do. And with the 2=4=3=4 shape the OP says that opener has, waiting seems like a good idea to me. Maybe we can beat this but the opponents have nine clubs, about half the points, and the declarer will know where all our high cards are and have a pretty good idea of our shape. I would not expect the defense to 3C to go well. Surely partner, the NT opener, realizes I will have a problem. He has to hope I am very intelligent.

 

Anyway, 3D. That's as intelligent as I get.

[P_Marlowe]

For us X would be for T/O.

I dont think this is the intention here.

 

2C was intended as Garbage Stayman, but was this partnership

agreement, or is the agreement 2C showes inv.+ values?

 

As it is, I would bid 3D, let the dice roll.

The problem with 3D, even assuming Garbage stayman: It showes

a powerhouse.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[SteveMoe]

Pure penalties. Opener will pass with any hand suitable for play opposite a 4-card major, so responder can reopen with a double. If responder has the garbage hand and opener doesn't have a club stack, then we are in the right spot. I'd want 2 ♣ honors to double. With a 4-card major I pass.

[miamijd]

[hv=d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1np2c3cdp]133|100[/hv]

 

This was East's hand.

 

2 Clubs right or wrong was intended to be garbage stayman.

Would 2NT transfer to diamonds have been a better bid?

West was 2-4-3-4 distribution.

What should East do now? TEAM GAME

 

[hv=pc=n&e=sj76hqt54dt96542c]133|100[/hv]

 

Penalty x and pass it. Why can't partner have AKx Axx xx. AJ98x?

 

Partner knows you could be garbage staymaning. If he doesn't have 3c beat easily in his hand he shouldn't x.

[iandayre]

Garbage Stayman automatic with this had, and penalties or not, I am pulling to 3D.

[Cyberyeti]

By our meta agreements (although playing weak notrump we're much less likely to have a pen or T/O X in this exact auction) X by the 1N opener is takeout. You need to discuss your garbage stayman because for us 1N-2♣-2♠-3♦ is to play with 4♥ and longer ♦ so I would have that option.

[rmnka447]

I'm also pulling to 3 ♦. Double is penalty oriented -- probably a 4 or 5 card ♣ stack, but you have far less than partner has a right to expect -- virtually no defense against 3 ♣. Doubled part scores making are the kiss of death at IMPs, so you've got to pull it. There's too much risk of that happening to sit. At best, your side can have up to 20 points, but will often be less. Also, the ♣ void is a problem because it's often necessary for doubler's partner to lead a trump through declarer's hand to help set up tricks in partner's stack in order to beat the contract.

[kenberg]

Penalty x and pass it. Why can't partner have AKx Axx xx. AJ98x?

 

Partner knows you could be garbage staymaning. If he doesn't have 3c beat easily in his hand he shouldn't x.

 

You are right, he could have that hand. As long as he takes your advice to double only when he has something such as this passing should be fine. That is, the double says "I am not asking for your opinion".

 

I think the double should either be as you say here, or it should be, as I prefer, four cards in both majors and xx in clubs. Here is why I think the latter is ueful. Yes it is true that with the 4-4 hand he can pass. Partner with the garbage hand will pass, and probably this is fine. partner with the invit+ hand will reopen with a double, but he will not necessarily hold both majors and, in some approaches, he won't hold even one major (if invit hands must start with 2C since 2NT is a trf). Thus there will be some guesswork about finding the fit. Maybe it can be solved, maybe not, but doubling to show support for both majors gets us there right away.

 

The above approach is consistent with the common agreement that 1NT-(3m)-X is negative. A different auction of course, but I think some of the same arguments still apply.

 

I have read the arguments on both sides and the only thing that seems clear to me is that the situation is ambiguous w/o prior discussion.

[kenberg]

OP, I am curious. What did you do, and were you right? I am committed to 3D, but I have no great confidence in this.

[Caitlynne]

The standard treatment is that it is penalty, showing clubs. (It can be played as takeout with Pass encouraging responder to act. Notice this has the advantage of allowing the opening side to defend without Doubling as well as defending with a Double when responder reopens with a Double.)

 

I would likely pull to 3D with the responding hand. It could be wrong, however.

[dickiegera]

OP, I am curious. What did you do, and were you right? I am committed to 3D, but I have no great confidence in this.

 

 

I bid 3 diamonds partner bid 3NT down 2 {could have been1}

 

Partner had KQx in diamonds and they split 2-2.

We had our difference of opinion on the bidding. I believe 3♥ would have made.

Teammates board played making 4♦ Don't know how they got there

[kenberg]

I bid 3 diamonds partner bid 3NT down 2 {could have been1}

 

Partner had KQx in diamonds and they split 2-2.

We had our difference of opinion on the bidding. I believe 3♥ would have made.

Teammates board played making 4♦ Don't know how they got there

 

Do you remember the details well enough to say what the likely result would have been for 3CX? With his four clubs it appears the double was intended for penalties and his continuation to 3NT after your pull certainly confirms this. I don't know his hand, but it seems to me he is flying solo here.

 

The even split in diamonds, pleasant if unexpected, is useful both in playing 3D and in playing 3NT if the control is there. It is also useful in beating 3C since it means a trick in diamonds is available. Which is a way of saying that if we can beat 3C a trick because of the 2-2 diamonds then I do not want to be defending 3CX even at matchpoints, let alone at imps.

 

I am not all the great a fan of LOTT, but it sometimes is useful in the post mortem when the details are known. We have nine diamonds, they have nine clubs. If 4D is making then 3CX is off one, or so LOTT predicts. Too close for my taste, especially since double dummy analysis, usually used when LOTT is applied, is often at odds with the table result.

 

I asked a partner last night what he thought the double was, and he said penalties if undiscussed. Ok, maybe so. If it is so, then I think the X should rarely require a pull. Luck was going your way with the pull, you have a nine card diamond fit and the diamonds split. But I think the penalty doubler has to assume that there usually will be no place to run or hide, and so he should only double if he is sure. I find it hard to imagine his certainty on a four card club holding unless the 3C bidder is a known madman.