Major Suit game try

[humilities]

Intermediate question here...

 

In the context of help-suit game tries, do you accept with the following?

 

KQx

10xx

Axxx

10xx

 

1S 2S

3C ?

 

 

(ps: I play with this partner twice per year, I know superior systems exist but that is irrelevant with this particular partner)

[wank]

yes. club suit not ideal, but how can you be any stronger for 2s?

[Phil]

Yes, absolutely.

 

3 cover cards is huge here.

[steve2005]

An Ace and KQ of trump what more do you need?

[1eyedjack]

Not that I am saying that I would vote for it, but someone might vote for 3N, if you provided the option.

[TylerE]

If this is an accept, you're not playing help suit game tries - or this is a new partner asking bid.

 

poor poor partner if he has something like AJxxx Jxxx - AQxx.

[TylerE]

An Ace and KQ of trump what more do you need?

 

This sort of attitude sounds like an abuse of the bid. Partner has PLENTY of other ways of asking if I have a good 2♠ bid. Like bidding 3♠. Partner didn't do that. Partner asked about clubs and I have probably the 2nd least useful possible club holding.

[Phil]

If this is an accept, you're not playing help suit game tries - or this is a new partner asking bid.

 

poor poor partner if he has something like AJxxx Jxxx - AQxx.

 

You'd make a game try on this? Considering opposite many wrong hands we won't make 7 tricks, trying for 10 seems rather aggressive.

[apollo1201]

Ok, my clubs are not great, but all the rest is working (unless p has a D void, in which case I'll apologize or pretend I considered my C holding as Hxx - the BIG TEN 😃).

[kenrexford]

Stop playing lead this suit game tries. Stop playing Help the opponents find the Suit to lead to set your Game Tries.

 

A mucher simpler and useful "game try" is to bid naturally, with 3C showing clubs. The idea is to let Responder know that his Queen of Clubs (if he has that) is a good card.

 

In fact, if I were to devise the simplest asking bid (other than quantitative), I would like the next up bid to ask, "Do you have any Queens with a maximum?" If min, sign off. If no Queens but max, bid game. If a max with a Queen, bid the suit with the Queen.

[SteveMoe]

Can't raise to game directly because I have no help in clubs. However this is a 3-cover max (with poor shape), so 3♦ it is. Perhaps that will be enough for partner to judge strain and level. 3N is not out of the question.

[rmnka447]

4 ♠

 

Typically, partner will invite with a 6 loser hand or less. You've 3 pretty sure winners, so even though you don't have ♣ help you should go.

[mcphee]

Apparently I have been asked if I can limit C losers, I can't so I do not bid game. If the cards I have outside of clubs is all partner needs then it is time to discuss our game tries. You lay down this dummy and they take 4 tricks and partners asks, 3 little is help? And we reply, it was my other cards that was what you needed not club help.

[lycier]

I would bid 3♦ to tell partner my help suit, let partner decide next auction.

[wank]

Apparently I have been asked if I can limit C losers, I can't so I do not bid game. If the cards I have outside of clubs is all partner needs then it is time to discuss our game tries. You lay down this dummy and they take 4 tricks and partners asks, 3 little is help? And we reply, it was my other cards that was what you needed not club help.

 

this is just plain illogical. you think partner has some sort of fetish and prefers to lose tricks in trumps and to the ace of diamonds than losing tricks in clubs?

 

people who think 3c just asks about clubs are misunderstanding. think of it this way: opener is saying 'i'm interested in game, but my clubs are crap; will game make?'. the answer with this hand is, 'we'll lose a few club tricks, but the rest of the hand is gin, 4S'

[ggwhiz]

3♦ is specifically discussed in my partnership as either no club help but still interested (Opener fairly often has a close choice as to which suit they ask for help in) or a super max, ie. the same hand with a stiff club.

 

I'll clarify the max by raising to game if partner tries to sign off and every once in a while, the help suit "game" try was an attempt at a slam and partners next bid if it isn't some number of spades usually gets us there (I can cue clubs next?).

 

I know system like this is not nor will be in place but I've pulled the bid on casual partners and never had it go wrong.

[notproven]

Given that this is an intermediate question, my reply is to stay within the system and bid 3♠. I'm assuming that partner asked the right question, so I'm going to give him the right reply. KISS applies.

 

In established partnerships or advanced++/expert games I'd bid 3♦ to show top of my 2♠ bid, no ♣ help and a ♦ control, then let partner decide.

[Tramticket]

Part of this is partnership style and philosophy.

 

Do you have the sort of partnership where one partner takes control, asks the questions and his partner is simply expected to respond: "yes" or "no" based on tightly defined questions.

 

For me the game try says:

- I have invitational values. [Remember invitational hands can vary enormously and a help suit isn't always clear cut].

- This is a suit where I may need some help.

 

It also asks partner whether he/she can help in the search for game

- Do they have helpful high cards in the suit?

- Or helpful shortage?

- Or general overall strength?

 

I expect both partnership members to exercise judgement.

 

On the example hand my judgement would be to bid game.

[Phil]

I've been reading this thread and done a lot of head shaking.

 

What kinds of hands qualify for a game try? Unfortunately I can't find any good resources, so I'll try to create something.

 

If three certain cover cards aren't enough to accept a game then partner doesn't have their call. Getting to the three level on a part score deal is similar to getting to the five level on a game deal when we were trying for slam. In other words we need a high level of safety when we make the call. If you'd like more of an explanation about this, I can elaborate.

 

First, some basics:

 

1. What does a single raise to 2M show?

 

It's generally defined as "semi constructive". I'd peg the bid at 8 to 10 "support" points, but if you want to include good 7's or bad 11's (but not both) that's fine. Most pairs have a way to show an immediate mixed raise, so 2M tends to be 3 trump unless 4M333. Good examples are:

 

A. Axx xx Kxxx xxx (minimum)

B. Jxx Axxxx xx Kxx (medium)

C. Qxx x AQxxx xxxx (max)

 

Personally if you make A a 3343 or replace the sQ with the K on C they would put the calls out of range for 2S.

 

2. What kind of hands should make game tries after 2M?

 

In general, pure hands with 5 AKQ losers should bid game and hands with poor ODR and 6 losers should pass. This leaves impure 5 loser or pure 6 loser hands that are making game tries. We start with an operating assumption that partner has *two* cover cards, so we should be looking for a 3rd. There is a 3rd class of hands that like to make a game try - soft 17's that are balanced (maybe terrible 18's) but have a high loser count - 6 or even 7, where 3N is a possibility.

 

I would bid game on AKxxx AQJx Ax xx (pure 5) but I'd pass with Axxxx AJxx Qxx A (impure 6)

 

Hands that look like good candidate for game tries are

 

A. AKxxx AT9x Kx xx (pure 6)

B. KTxxx QJxx KQx A (impure 5)

C. QJxxx KJT AQ KJx (flat 17 but 7 losers)

 

...to be continued

[Vampyr]

1. What does a single raise to 2M show?

 

It's generally defined as "semi constructive". I'd peg the bid at 8 to 10 "support" points, but if you want to include good 7's or bad 11's (but not both) that's fine.

 

Many people respond on 6 or even 5 points. Would you say they have to bid 1NT? Fine if it's forcing, not so great if it isn't.

[Phil]

Many people respond on 6 or even 5 points. Would you say they have to bid 1NT? Fine if it's forcing, not so great if it isn't.

 

Yes, with 5-7, 1N is preferred, even if 1N isn't forcing. 2/1 partnerships use either forcing or semi-forcing (which means the call can be made with up to a bad 12), so opener can pass 1N with 11 to a bad 13 balanced. That's the worst-case scenario, but sometimes 1N can play OK even if 2S is a little better.

 

But it's worth splitting up the 5-7 / 8-10 ranges even if we might occasionally play an inferior partial.

[Vampyr]

Yes, with 5-7, 1N is preferred, even if 1N isn't forcing.

 

It is also not preferred. Obviously depends on who you ask.

[Phil]

It is also not preferred. Obviously depends on who you ask.

 

Stefanie, I'm pretty much explaining what standard 2/1 encompasses. It's not SAYC and certainly not ACOL. I don't know what you play in your partnerships but I can tell you that what I'm suggesting is played by most top pairs. In addition, I've given some wiggle room on what the ranges can be and it would be helpful if the discussion focuses on the specific aspects of evaluation and approach rather on higher level questions about the wisdom of having a wide versus a narrow range for 1M - 2M.

 

If you want to engage in a debate about the merits of raising to 2M on trashy 6 counts, I'd suggest we do it in a different thread.

 

Thanks.

[eagles123]

Part of this is partnership style and philosophy.

Do you have the sort of partnership where one partner takes control, asks the questions and his partner is simply expected to respond: "yes" or "no" based on tightly defined questions.

 

For me the game try says:

- I have invitational values. [Remember invitational hands can vary enormously and a help suit isn't always clear cut].

- This is a suit where I may need some help.

 

It also asks partner whether he/she can help in the search for game

- Do they have helpful high cards in the suit?

- Or helpful shortage?

- Or general overall strength?

 

I expect both partnership members to exercise judgement.

 

On the example hand my judgement would be to bid game.

 

This has nothing to do with Partnership style and philosophy - not bidding 4s here would just be plain wrong, we have a total max 2S, our club holding has become an irrelevance.

[wanoff]

It's not just a max 2♠ but a working max. You wouldn't for instance bid 4 with xxx KQx Axxx xxx.