Claim of 13 Tricks after opening lead

[Frager]

QJ65

AQ84

Q986

7

10 AK83

932 ---

A105 KJ32

1089532 AKQKJ9

 

9742

KJ10765

74

4

 

 

 

The above hand was Board 3, Segment 1 of the Quarter Finals of the USBC in Denver, CO.

 

The contract was 6 clubs by West.

 

Opening lead: Ace of Hearts

 

When the opening lead was tabled, John Hurd, West claimed 13 tricks.

 

How could he see 13 tricks? Did it depend on a successful finesse in diamonds.

 

Thanks

 

Beginner

 

PS How do I insert hand diagrams into a post?

 

Thanks

[Zelandakh]

Hello Frager, you can insert hand diagrams by using the Hand Editor symbol (black spade on a white background with red side bars) from the post editor. In the actual hand, declarer can discard a diamond on ♠K and has enough trumps to ruff everything so no finesse is required.

[Tramticket]

If I read this correctly (not easy), the diamond loser goes on the ace/king of spades

[Cyberyeti]

Yes, there are only 2 trumps out, he can draw them in 2 rounds if necessary, ruff 3 hearts in dummy and ♦AK ♠AK take care of his 4 diamonds, so he has his 6 trumps, 3 heart ruffs and 2 AKs.

[Frager]

Thanks to all who replied.

 

Beginner

[1eyedjack]

[hv=pc=n&s=s9742hkjt765d74c4&w=sth932dat5ct86532&n=sqj65haq84dq986c7&e=sak83hdkj32cakqj9&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p6cppp&p=ha]399|300[/hv]

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&s=s9742hkjt765d74c4&w=sth932dat5ct86532&n=sqj65haq84dq986c7&e=sak83hdkj32cakqj9&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p6cppp&p=ha]399|300[/hv]

I think there is something in the Laws about when declarer makes a claim without

a statement of play. I think the defenders should challenge and call the TD

[johnu]

I think there is something in the Laws about when declarer makes a claim without

a statement of play. I think the defenders should challenge and call the TD

 

LOL. For 1 thing, this was on vugraph so the exact claim is almost never described. Depending on the operator and how easy it is to see player's bids and plays, bids and plays may not even be recorded properly. 2nd, depending on who's playing who, claims can be pretty informal and nobody at the table would contest unless there was a serious problem in the number of tricks. I can't imagine an expert defender doing anything except picking up their cards and going on to the next board.

[Vampyr]

I think there is something in the Laws about when declarer makes a claim without

a statement of play. I think the defenders should challenge and call the TD

 

I would love to know the basis of the challenge.

[manudude03]

He has a 2-way finesse position he might go for? Seriously though, I'm claiming as soon as I take out the trumps (I could claim at trick 1, but I'd rather avoid the "but I still have a trump" whines).

[Vampyr]

He has a 2-way finesse position he might go for? Seriously though, I'm claiming as soon as I take out the trumps (I could claim at trick 1, but I'd rather avoid the "but I still have a trump" whines).

 

Yeah, I had that recently. I led a trump towards Qx in dummy and claimed when no one had 10xxxx. The opponents were adamant -- we had to ring up a referee!

[PhilG007]

He has a 2-way finesse position he might go for? Seriously though, I'm claiming as soon as I take out the trumps (I could claim at trick 1, but I'd rather avoid the "but I still have a trump" whines).

If you are a believer in the old adage of "the queen lying over the jack" then the two way

finesse has become one way and you shouldn't have any further problems.

[Tramticket]

If you are a believer in the old adage of "the queen lying over the jack" then the two way

finesse has become one way and you shouldn't have any further problems.

 

I think that they have probably got beyond bad shuffling and dealing by hand in the Quarter Finals of the USBC in Denver! :P

[paulg]

I think that they have probably got beyond bad shuffling and dealing by hand in the Quarter Finals of the USBC in Denver! :P

You are right, of course, but have you played in the USA? You might be surprised at how much dealing by hand is done in all stages of the major, and minor, team tournaments.

[661_Pete]

looks perfectly OK to me. He can draw trumps in 1-2 rounds and still ruff 2 more hearts. He has plenty of entries and the first heart ruff can't be over-ruffed.

[Vampyr]

You are right, of course, but have you played in the USA? You might be surprised at how much dealing by hand is done in all stages of the major, and minor, team tournaments.

 

Yes, it is surprising. And naturally not all of the hands are shuffled the requisite seven times (or 2500 times if using overhand shuffles).

[Tramticket]

I must admit that, even at club level, I tend to avoid clubs that don't have access to a dealing machine.

[Vampyr]

I must admit that, even at club level, I tend to avoid clubs that don't have access to a dealing machine.

 

Luckily, I don't know of any of these. Even the club that gets 2-5 tables per week has a dealing machine.

[ArtK78]

[hv=pc=n&s=s9742hkjt765d74c4&w=sth932dat5ct86532&n=sqj65haq84dq986c7&e=sak83hdkj32cakqj9&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p6cppp&p=ha]399|300[/hv]

 

The more interesting question is how does one bid the grand? It should be possible using a sophisticated strong club system, but even using a standard system, if responder can splinter in spades after opener shows long clubs the grand may be reached. Diagnosing the fact that the diamond loser does not exist may be beyond all but the most sophisticated systems, however.

 

I sympathize with reaching only the small. Slam auctions with long club suits are very awkward.

[Zelandakh]

The more interesting question is how does one bid the grand? It should be possible using a sophisticated strong club system,

You would not get to use the strong club system as either South would open a pre-empt or North would open one of a red suit.

[kenberg]

With S as the dealer I can well imagine the first three calls being 2H-Pass-4H. Lots of luck. Even if we make E the dealer it might start 1C-2H-Pass-4H.

 

When the auction begins with aggressive preemptive action I figure getting to a small slam in the right strain is about as much as we can reasonably hope for.

 

Still, we could ask for a good auction against more passive opponents, just as a matter of interest.

 

A word to the OP, who identifies himself as a beginner. Here is a good way to start a hand. Ask yourself: If I draw trump, take my side suit winners and take my ruffs, how many tricks do I have? Here the answer is easy: Two spades, three heart ruffs, two diamonds, six clubs in hand. Hey, that's thirteen.

 

Another way if putting it: Before you take a finesse, check to see that there is actually some point in doing so. Many players who should know better sometimes forget to do this. Maybe including me!

[Zelandakh]

Still, we could ask for a good auction against more passive opponents, just as a matter of interest.

My system would have East show a strong 40(54) hand with 7 controls. I think that would be enough to bid 7♣ with reasonable confidence without having to ask further. I imagine any system including a strong Roman auction sequence would produce a similar result.

[PhilG007]

I would love to know the basis of the challenge.

LAW 70C 1.2.3 and section E

[1eyedjack]

LAW 70C 1.2.3 and section E

Pointing out that there are laws that govern claims is hardly going the extra mile to provide the "basis of challenge".

 

You can imagine the conversation at the table:

 

Declarer: "I claim the rest"

Defender: "I object!"

Declarer: "On what basis?"

Defender: "Well, Duh! Law 70C 1,2,3 and section E"

Declarer: "Oh god, how could I have been so remiss? Of course I concede"

 

When interpreting these laws the director is required to assume that, where a line is unstated, declarer may make an inferior line but not one that is irrational. He is also required to consider, when there is an outstanding trump, whether it is at all likely that declarer was unaware.

 

So to challenge the claim you would need to establish that taking a Diamond finesse would, for that class of player, be a rational play given that he has 13 on top.

[ArtK78]

An admittedly beginner player failed to see that there are 13 tricks available without taking a finesse. That is understandable.

 

For anyone who is not a beginner to not be able to see it, is hard to understand. Phil, do you really fail to see that 13 tricks are trivially available on these cards without taking a finesse?