(pass) - 1C - (pass) - 4NT

[Tryggolaf]

Playing in a pick-up partnership in a natural 5 card majors context, you open 1♣ showing 2+♣. Your responses are up the line and you are nearly certain you play inverted minors. Partner manages to surprise you with a 4NT-bid. Regardless of the actual hand you hold, what would you think the 4NT-bid means? In addition to that question, what is your agreement on the 4NT-bid in your regular partnership?

 

(pass) - 1♣ [= 2+ ♣] - (pass) - 4NT

[1eyedjack]

Missing 5th option:

Transfer to new partner

[manudude03]

This ^^. Seriously though, in a pickup partnership, all 4NT bids are RKCB unless obvious.

[wank]

it should be 4 ace blackwood - and there's no reason to assume this isn't the right bid on partner's hand. if p has a very shapely hand just missing the right number of aces, it's much better to get blackwood in before you get pre-empted by 4th hand's equally shapely hand.

 

A x KQJ10xxx KQJx for example.

[Tryggolaf]

it should be 4 ace blackwood - and there's no reason to assume this isn't the right bid on partner's hand. if p has a very shapely hand just missing the right number of aces, it's much better to get blackwood in before you get pre-empted by 4th hand's equally shapely hand.

 

A x KQJ10xxx KQJx for example.

 

I opened 1♣ in second seat. It's correctly stated in the opening post, but in a misguided attempt not to overcomplicate the thread title I didn't include it there. Perhaps one of the mods can edit another change the title of the thread to '(pass) - 1C - (pass) - 4NT'.

 

The danger of your concern is a lot less after I opened in 2nd seat, but the opponent in 1st seat might still enter the auction with a shapely hand unfit for a pre-empt in his methods and to a lesser extent, the opponent in 3rd seat might do the same with long ♣ if he wasn't able to bid 2/3 ♣ natural after he faced the 1♣-opening.

[helene_t]

Yes but it is not worth the hassle to play different responses to a 1st seat and 2nd seat opening.

[Vampyr]

I opened 1♣ in second seat. It's correctly stated in the opening post, but in a misguided attempt not to overcomplicate the thread title I didn't include it there. Perhaps one of the mods can edit another change the title of the thread to '(pass) - 1C - (pass) - 4NT'.

 

The danger of your concern is a lot less after I opened in 2nd seat, but the opponent in 1st seat might still enter the auction with a shapely hand unfit for a pre-empt in his methods and to a lesser extent, the opponent in 3rd seat might do the same with long ♣ if he wasn't able to bid 2/3 ♣ natural after he faced the 1♣-opening.

 

It's not just that you might be pre-empted. This is also probably the last time you will have the chance to clearly bid regular Blackwood.

 

I thought this was standard.

[wank]

I opened 1♣ in second seat. It's correctly stated in the opening post, but in a misguided attempt not to overcomplicate the thread title I didn't include it there. Perhaps one of the mods can edit another change the title of the thread to '(pass) - 1C - (pass) - 4NT'.

 

The danger of your concern is a lot less after I opened in 2nd seat, but the opponent in 1st seat might still enter the auction with a shapely hand unfit for a pre-empt in his methods and to a lesser extent, the opponent in 3rd seat might do the same with long ♣ if he wasn't able to bid 2/3 ♣ natural after he faced the 1♣-opening.

 

ok but there are other dangers.

 

for example, opener might jump to show extras. it might then become difficult to set responder's suit as trumps and initiate blackwood without opener doing something awkward. rkcb for opener's suit might be of little value, because the king of that suit is often irrelevant on this hand type.

 

funny stuff happens. it might not be likely, but a straight 4 ace bwood to start mitigates those risks

[PhilG007]

The type of player I most dread pairing up with is the one who just loves to

see the wheels go round. In the example given,I would pass 4NT and if partner started

remonstrating,I would just simply reply "We had no agreement on this" Time and again

I have stressed that in any pick up pairing you should strive to KEEP IT SIMPLE!!!!!!

Long ago,when I was a novice I was told that if you made a bid and partner didn't understand the

meaning of it,it was YOUR fault <_<

[billw55]

Aces only. Partner's hand should be a control oriented one suiter.

 

So basically what wank said.

[Cyberyeti]

Aces only. Partner's hand should be a control oriented one suiter.

 

So basically what wank said.

 

I disagree with Wank's example, but agree with his meaning. The hand he gives can keycard now/later by whatever method you have agreed, the hand that can't be bid as easily is the one with a singleton in partner's suit where you don't care about the K of his suit and just want to know aces.

[PhilG007]

Years ago the question "When is 4NT NOT Blackwood?" caused a lot of confusion amongst the rank and file.

And it would seem that confusion is still rife today. So when IS 4NT Blackwood and when not? I ask this question if

only to set the record straight for the benefit of any novices or intermediates reading this.

[nige1]

Playing in a pick-up partnership in a natural 5 card majors context, you open 1♣ showing 2+♣. Your responses are up the line and you are nearly certain you play inverted minors. Partner manages to surprise you with a 4NT-bid. Regardless of the actual hand you hold, what would you think the 4NT-bid means? In addition to that question, what is your agreement on the 4NT-bid in your regular partnership?

(pass) - 1♣ [= 2+ ♣] - (pass) - 4NT

Interpretations of 4N, I rank

1. Keycard for ♣. Agree with manududeo3 that this is the likely meaning as a reply to any other 1-opener. e.g. ♠ K Q J x ♥ K Q J x ♦ A K Q ♣ x x
2. 4-A Blackwood. Perhaps Wank's interpretation is more sensible, when opener may have as few as 2 ♣s e.g. ♠ x ♥ A K Q x x x x x x x ♦ x ♣ x
3. Quantitative. Not likely when opener might have a shapely hand. Anyway, you can hardly risk a pass even if, like 1eyedjack, you want a new partner.

[Cyberyeti]

Interpretations of 4N, I rank

1. Keycard for ♣. Agree with manududeo3 that this is the likely meaning as a reply to any other 1-opener. e.g. ♠ K Q J x ♥ K Q J x ♦ A K Q ♣ x x
2. 4-A Blackwood. Perhaps Wank's interpretation is more sensible, when opener may have as few as 2 ♣s e.g. ♠ x ♥ A K Q x x x x x x x ♦ x ♣ x
3. Quantitative. Not likely when opener might have a shapely hand. Anyway, you can hardly risk a pass even if, like 1eyedjack, you want a new partner.

 

Would agree with you about 1 but I would expect to have agreed 4♣ or 4♦ to be that.

[johnu]

The type of player I most dread pairing up with is the one who just loves to

see the wheels go round. In the example given,I would pass 4NT and if partner started

remonstrating,I would just simply reply "We had no agreement on this" Time and again

I have stressed that in any pick up pairing you should strive to KEEP IT SIMPLE!!!!!!

Long ago,when I was a novice I was told that if you made a bid and partner didn't understand the

meaning of it,it was YOUR fault <_<

 

As the OP says, "what would you think the 4NT-bid means?" Please give a list of alternate meanings for 4NT that you think are relevant after a 1♣ opener. I don't think you can come up with anything that any pickup partner would consider springing on an unknown partner playing in a pickup partnership.

 

If your partner makes a bid that 99.9% of the bridge population should understand, and you don't, it really is your fault.

 

I once (and only once) played in a lunchtime game at work where I opened 1♠ and partner jumped to 4♠. Partner put down a prime 15-16 HCP hand, I had a decent 17 count and 7 made on a finesse. Partner pointed out that I should have taken another bid because he had shown a very strong hand. I tried to explain that 4♠ was supposed to be preemptive, but my partner and both opponents firmly agreed that it showed an opening hand or better. So in that game, it was my fault for not knowing the company bidding system in use.

 

I would say 99.9% of unknown partners meant 4NT as Blackwood whether beginner, intermediate, or expert. IMHO, the only question is whether you are playing RKC responses. I would keep it simple, if your partner knows about RKC, then I would assume RKC responses.

[661_Pete]

It seems to me, partner must be expecting either to play their suit without support, or play NT. Whatever, they could be in line for a nasty 'accident'. Why not just respond two of their own suit, a forcing jump response in my system, and see how it goes from there?

 

I don't play SAYC but in ACOL, my preferred system, a 4NT bid would be suicidal if responder is supporting clubs. Suppose it's standard Blackwood, opener responds 5♦, then you realise you are two aces short. It's happened to me :( . Lesson learnt.

[Cyberyeti]

It seems to me, partner must be expecting either to play their suit without support, or play NT. Whatever, they could be in line for a nasty 'accident'. Why not just respond two of their own suit, a forcing jump response in my system, and see how it goes from there?

 

I don't play SAYC but in ACOL, my preferred system, a 4NT bid would be suicidal if responder is supporting clubs. Suppose it's standard Blackwood, opener responds 5♦, then you realise you are two aces short. It's happened to me :( . Lesson learnt.

 

I'm guessing they play weak jump shifts, if they play strong, then several possibilities disappear.

[msjennifer]

Why not see his/her profile? Surely then one knows if it is simple Blackwood or Roman Key Card Blackwood.I assume that he is prepared to play in some 6/7 contract and he is ready for the 5D or any other response.He knows that opener may have

only a doubleton club.One can not have a need to have a specific HCP requirements, unless the opening bid is 1/2 NT in which case i4NT is usually played as quantitative since there is Gerber [for Aces] and other pathways available to bid 4 NT later as simple orRKCB. As regards the second question ,4NT is Quantitative also when partner finding no established fit in any suit has signed of in say 3NT and asks him to bid six if he has the maximum HCP as the range revealed by him earlier.Opener "may"further bid 5 NT to show middle of the range provided there is prior agreement to that effect.Pairs also play 1/2 NT --4 NT as quantitative as I said earlier.

[1eyedjack]

Why not see his/her profile? Surely then one knows if it is simple Blackwood or Roman Key Card Blackwood.

Unless your own profile is different, and he may have been acting on your profile rather than his own :)

[gordontd]

Why not see his/her profile? Surely then one knows if it is simple Blackwood or Roman Key Card Blackwood.

It would be common for strong players to play this as simple Blackwood even though they play RKCB in most other situations.

[notproven]

I vote for 4 Ace Blackwood. The 1♣ bid is not a suit (since it could be short). Partner knows what he's looking for, and if he doesn't, I vote for 1eyedjack's fifth option.

 

In regular partnerships I play this sequence one of three ways, depending upon specific prior agreement:

a) 4 Ace Blackwood (always with a short club or strong club system);

b) quantitative (shows about a 20 count, balanced, all suits at least second round control) (how often does that happen?);

c) RKC for clubs (if opener promises 3+♣).

[PhilG007]

Playing in a pick-up partnership in a natural 5 card majors context, you open 1♣ showing 2+♣. Your responses are up the line and you are nearly certain you play inverted minors. Partner manages to surprise you with a 4NT-bid. Regardless of the actual hand you hold, what would you think the 4NT-bid means? In addition to that question, what is your agreement on the 4NT-bid in your regular partnership?

 

(pass) - 1♣ [= 2+ ♣] - (pass) - 4NT

I play RKCB but as I too play the short club I would be very wary of bidding 4NT opposite a 1♣opener unless I had great strength in the suit myself. Indeed,the final contract might not even be clubs (!) :rolleyes:

[nige1]

would agree with you about 1 (Key-card) but I would expect to have agreed 4♣ or 4♦ to be that.

Reasonable although, with a pick-up partner, some would fear 4♣ might be pre-emptive and 4♦ exclusion. Anyway, I wouldn't blame a partner for hoping that I correctly interpret such a bid :). Partner might even intend it as a compliment. Understandably, others, like 1eyedjack would expect a pick-up partner to avoid the risk of ambiguous efforts :(

[Vampyr]

I play RKCB but as I too play the short club I would be very wary of bidding 4NT opposite a 1♣opener unless I had great strength in the suit myself. Indeed,the final contract might not even be clubs (!) :rolleyes:

 

This is why normal Blackwood is the popular choice, and in fact no other interpretation would cross my mind, as any others would require prior agreement. I don't care how many clubs are promised; I would do the same over any suit opening bid.

 

Also I would have expected that if I had bid this with a pickup partner, that is how she would have understood it. This thread has been illuminating.

[SteveMoe]

Joining the chorus for Blackwood (Aces). Of course, I have to want to play 6 if partner has one Ace (or 5 of my own suit).

 

If I want to know keys, I make a forcing raise first (and then bid 4♣ or 4♦ ask the keycard ask. So 4N is almost never RKB over ♣).

 

Quantitative for me asks partner if they have extras for their bidding. Since 1♣ can be 11 - 21 HCP, 4N certainly isn't asking partner. The range is just too big. Showing partner?? There's just no need to use up the bidding space just because I hold 20 - 21.

 

Specific Aces? Too small a benefit window when Ole Black is available.