ATB Who should bid more?

[silvr bull]

Matchpoints. N-S open 12-14 NT, so a 1C or 1D open could preface a 1NT rebid to show a balanced 15-17, or it could be an undefined unbalanced hand.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saj76ha87daq852c7&n=skt3hk5dk743ck942&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1d1s2n3c3dppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Post Mortum:

 

North: South's bid showed weakness because it prevented North from doubling. North was surprised South bid 3D.

 

South: 3D free bid showed extra values and 5 or more Ds. South was surprised North passed.

 

What's your viewpoint?

[1eyedjack]

Would a pass by South have been forcing? If you make it forcing it (1) takes away some problems but (2) shifts the blame all over the shop compared with NF.

 

Personally I would play pass as NF despite the preceding auction, and in that context:

 

3D does not show extras. He is entitled to bank on his partner's 2NT limit bid if he has distribution to compete, for fear of 3C being passed out.

 

So maybe 3S by South to ask for help in Clubs, unless you play X as takeout, which would I think be non-standard but not entirely unreasonable agreement if pass is NF.

 

I might well bid 3N with North on the stated auction anyway. Somewhat concerned that 2N might have been passed out on the previous round.

 

So I give South more than half of the blame, but North does not escape entirely.

[billw55]

Mostly north. 3♦ should show six cards or extra values, either way 3NT must have play. Being surprised is not reason to stop thinking.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

given that 2NT is pretty limited, 3D is just to play / competitive, the 2 NT promised 2+ diamonds.

 

Hence South has to do more, 3H comes to mind, since 2NT should deny 4 hearts, 3H showes values.

 

I prefer 2S instead of 2NT, but the first question would be, did 1D show 4+ or, could it be 3+.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[wank]

3d is to play - a minimum with long diamonds (6+). That was perforce an underbid and over statement of the diamond suit.

 

Still, north could punt 3nt, expecting 6 diamonds, an ace king, and 1 trick from another king. his original 2nt was already on the very conservative side.

[silvr bull]

Q: Would a pass by South have been forcing?

A: This specific situation was not previously discussed, but yes, a pass by S must be forcing with 12-14 NT openings. Playing 15-17 NT, S could have a balanced 13 and then a pass would not be forcing. With 12-14 NT, however, S cannot have a bad balanced opener, but can easily have a problem hand like AJxx Axx AQxx xx, or stronger by replacing x with a red Jack or two. Then S cannot guess at 3NT because N may have only a doubleton C and no stop, and S cannot guess to bid higher in Ds because N might have only a doubleton D. North must decide whether to double 3C or go to game, so S must pass the decision to N. Given that a pass by S must be forcing, then what should S do with a bad opener that has 5 or more Ds? That seems like an easy decision to me. N will either double 3C (and S can pull to a weak 3D), or bid 3D which S will happily pass, or bid 3NT which S will pass and hope for the best. With a good opener that does not want to play 3CX, S should not pass and pull a double to 3D, the same way he would with a bad opener. Instead, S can and should bid 3D immediately to tell N that he has good values with 5 or longer Ds and more than a minimum open.

 

Q: Does a 1D open promise 4 Ds?

A: Our style is to open the better minor with a strong balanced hand. With 4=4=3=2, we would open 1D. We tried promising 4 Ds to open 1D, so that we would open 1C on a 4=4=3=2, but had numerous problems when aggressive overcalls made it difficult to further describe the hand and responder did not know if opener had only 2 Cs or more.

[wank]

there's no reason at all why pass should be forcing. having a combined 22 count doesn't mean it's your hand at the 3 level.

 

i don't think i ever saw anyone playing pass as forcing on an auction like this. my money's on your being led astray by the earlier question.

 

before any weak NT aficionados quote their 'extra values or extra shape' mantra to me, extra shape is good when you have a fit, but when you don't have a fit, extra shape can be rewritten as 'extra misfit'

[helene_t]

The 2NT bid is very descriptive so it transfers captaincy to South. So 3♦ is just to play.

 

A 3♠ bid by South would show game forcing strength and telling North that good club stoppers are needed to 3NT. Maybe you won't find the slam anyway (♠10 is a critical card) but at least you will be in game.

[kenberg]

Matchpoints. N-S open 12-14 NT, so a 1C or 1D open could preface a 1NT rebid to show a balanced 15-17, or it could be an undefined unbalanced hand.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saj76ha87daq852c7&n=skt3hk5dk743ck942&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1d1s2n3c3dppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Post Mortum:

 

North: South's bid showed weakness because it prevented North from doubling. North was surprised South bid 3D.

 

My preference is to go with the simplest possible interpretation, namely: I heard your 2NT. Based on that, I think we can make 3D. I don't think 3D shows a sixth diamond or much extra, but I don't think pass is forcing so I think 3D shows more than a pass. I think S has too much for this simple bid.

 

South: 3D free bid showed extra values and 5 or more Ds. South was surprised North passed.

 

What's your viewpoint?

 

N has a good 2NT bid. The diamond K is useful. Actually so is the club K, as it deters an opening club lead from E. This seems like a clear 3NT by N assuming only that the 3D from S is stronger than pass.

 

So how to get to where?

 

I think 3S over 3C is right. Reasoning: Partner has values form his 2NT bid, S has a good five card suit, good values and a stiff club. S cannot know exactly what N has or what N will do over 3S but whatever it is it is apt to be right. I imagine N will bid 3NT.

 

Yes, 6D may well be right but as Helene said it is hard to find it with confidence and, further, it might not be right. With no one showing hearts they may well be 4-4 and it seems E has a lot of clubs. Maybe no spades. His club bid will draw a club lead against 5D (no reason to be there) or 3NT (if played by S) but a double of 6D will suggest the ability to ruff something and probably draw a spade lead. I think I will be fine with 3NT. I realize that with six spades W probably would have bid 2S rather than 1S since he does not seem to have much, so 6D is probably making, but the issue for me is to get to 3NT.

[perko90]

I think N has an easy 3NT bid. And if ever there was a tie breaker, having 4 K's should highly incentivize N to become declarer.

That said, I don't really like S's decision to bid 3D w/ only 5 D's and 15 HCP. Sure, the stiff C is a concern, but ya can't play scared bridge.

[ggwhiz]

3♦ is to play period and the south hand calls for a 3♠ cue or at least a double which most would play as 15-17 balanced and some just these extra 2-way values.

 

Meanwhile do you really open shapely trash in 2nd at unfavorable that the north hand can't commit to game?

 

South 100%, North (or the opening bid style) 75%

[mcphee]

South gets the blame, 3D is a very bad choice when sure his side has a game, or more. LOoks to me we need to show a wee bit of poor and cue bid.

[rmnka447]

I'm sorry but on the actual auction I'm giving North a huge share of the blame for the final pass. North is looking at all 4 Ks. It seems likely that at worst South has opened on at least 2 As and has long ♦ after the 3 ♦ bid.

 

Since the pair are playing weak NTs, free bids by opener show extras in distribution or values. A pass would show the minimum unbalanced ♦ hand. So with something like ♠ xxx ♥ AJxx ♦ AQxxx ♣ x, opener has to pass. But with ♠ xx ♥ AJx ♦ AQxxxx ♣ xx or the actual hand held, 3 ♦ can be bid. In either case, 3 NT looks to have a good play by North and should be bid.