This contract needs to be improved.

[lycier]

Now let's see this sequence of my basic Gibs at first :

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s843hq73d9754c753&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1nd(penalty%20double)p?]133|200[/hv]

On Gib CC, north double says penalty double.

Face to penalty double, if I am south, I am not confident of defeating 1NT because of too weak hand, so I have to escape.

However, there is a issue in the south hand, how to escape? See my real Gib hand at below.

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=lycier&s=S843HQ73D9754C753&wn=Robot&w=SKJ6HAJT85DK6CK92&nn=Robot&n=SAQ97HK6DQJ32CAJT&en=Robot&e=ST52H942DAT8CQ864&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1N(notrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20%21C%3B%202-5%20%21D%3B%202-5%20%21H%3B%202-5%20%21S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points)D(Penalty%20double%20--%2016+%20HCP)P2D(5+%20%21D%3B%204-%20HCP)PPP&p=DKD2D8D4D6DJDAD5DTD7H5DQHKH2H3HAHJH6H4HQS4S6SQS2SAS5S3SKS7STS8SJC2CTCQC3C6C5C9CJCAC8C7CKD3H9D9HTH7H8S9C4]400|300[/hv]

After penalty double, on Gib CC :

2♣= 5+♣, 4-hcp

2♦=5+♦,4-hcp

2♥=5+♥,4-hcp

2♠=5+,4-hcp

2NT= undefined

Now we can be easy to find such explanations differ from the actual, if hold any 4432 shape, how to escape? Obviously, the longest suit is only 4 cards,never 5 cards.

1- If hold 4432 with 4-4 minors, how to escape? 2♣ may be best.

2- If holds 4432 with 4-4 majors, I am wondering how to escape.

 

So I would suggest 2♣/♦=4+, 4-hcp.

Ok?

 

P.S.

After penalty double, if south pass, the result would be worst.

 

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=BECHTLOFF&s=S843HQ73D9754C753&wn=Robot&w=SKJ6HAJT85DK6CK92&nn=Robot&n=SAQ97HK6DQJ32CAJT&en=Robot&e=ST52H942DAT8CQ864&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1N(notrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20%21C%3B%202-5%20%21D%3B%202-5%20%21H%3B%202-5%20%21S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points)D(Penalty%20double%20--%2016+%20HCP)PPP&p=S7STS3S6H4H7H8HKDQD8D4DKC2CTCQC3H2H3HJH6HAD2H9HQHTS9C8D5H5D3S2C5D6DJDAD7DTD9C9SQC6C7CKCACJC4S4SKSAS5S8SJ]400|300[/hv]

[manudude03]

I don't think requiring a 5 card suit to run is that unreasonable. Sometimes when you have a very weak hand, partner has 1NT beat in hand, and what's to say whatever you run to isn't going to go for more than the 180 for 1NTx if it makes?

[lycier]

I don't think requiring a 5 card suit to run is that unreasonable. Sometimes when you have a very weak hand, partner has 1NT beat in hand, and what's to say whatever you run to isn't going to go for more than the 180 for 1NTx if it makes?

 

You are making a joke.

It is very simple, as a bidding system, if without escaping agreements, that is not a complete system.

I meant the programmers need to improve escaping agreements.

 

Thank you for your reply.

[manudude03]

You are making a joke.

It is very simple, as a bidding system, if without escaping agreements, that is not a complete system.

I meant the programmers need to improve escaping agreements.

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

If you aren't going to take me seriously, fine, but here's a layout I've come up with in about 2 seconds.

[hv=pc=n&s=s765h7654d432c542&w=sakj9haqt9d976cj8&n=s432h32dakqtcakqt&e=sqt8hkj8dj85c9763&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1ndp2hdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

If south had just left the hand alone, he was going to end +500. Since he pulled it to 2H, he is now going for -800. North doesn't have anything to pull it to, 2NT is off the first 8 tricks and 3m is a wild gamble which can be held to 7 tricks with accurate defense. Also he doesn't know if partner has 4 or 6 hearts.

[lycier]

In all of the situation what you said , it needs south to escape to a better contract, usually to 2♣ instead of 2♥, generally speaking, its probability is far more better than pass.

Surprisedly, there is a supporter in your reply.

As a complete system, if there is no escaping approach, that's really a joke.

[1eyedjack]

Having an escape system and choosing to escape are two separate issues.

 

In my experience it is quite popular to pass out partner's double with a weak balanced hand unless the opponents redouble to play, especially when the doubler's side is vulnerable, as the cost of letting the contract make is often less than the doubled rescue bid.

 

The hand at the beginning of this thread happens to favour removing the double, because by a stroke of good fortune doubler happens to have 4 card support for South's only 4 card suit.

[manudude03]

In all of the situation what you said , it needs south to escape to a better contract, usually to 2♣ instead of 2♥, generally speaking, its probability is far more better than pass.

Surprisedly, there is a supporter in your reply.

As a complete system, if there is no escaping approach, that's really a joke.

 

Switch North's hearts and clubs (and adjusting for duplicate pips) and you are now playing in a poor 3-2 fit vul!

[iandayre]

It is quite standard to Pass the S hand opposite a penalty double of a strong 1NT. There is no reason to believe that playing in a suit is better.

[johnu]

In all of the situation what you said , it needs south to escape to a better contract, usually to 2♣ instead of 2♥, generally speaking, its probability is far more better than pass.

Surprisedly, there is a supporter in your reply.

As a complete system, if there is no escaping approach, that's really a joke.

 

lycier - if you want to learn to play better, try listening to advanced and expert players who know how to play the game.

 

OK, you've stumbled upon one of the worst case scenarios for leaving in 1NTx. Good bridge is based on probabilities and sometimes you get an awful result. More often, you can beat 1NT even with your weak hand, or letting them make 1NT is better than declaring your own contract, frequently doubled.

 

Now if you get a redouble to play, that changes the bridge odds for running.

[lycier]

lycier - if you want to learn to play better, try listening to advanced and expert players who know how to play the game.

 

OK, you've stumbled upon one of the worst case scenarios for leaving in 1NTx. Good bridge is based on probabilities and sometimes you get an awful result. More often, you can beat 1NT even with your weak hand, or letting them make 1NT is better than declaring your own contract, frequently doubled.

 

Now if you get a redouble to play, that changes the bridge odds for running.

 

 

Would you confirm you and my opps are decent advanced or expert players?

When we posted the hand and made some comments on it, normally it has nothing to do with the private skill.

Your main point is south must pass even with zero point hand over pd's penalty double to opp's 1nt.

To be honest, this is just a classic content only for beginner and intermediate.

You are making a rediculous joke.

You really don't understand what the complete bidding system including Gib CC is.

[Stephen Tu]

Would you confirm you and my opps are decent advanced or expert players?

When we posted the hand and made some comments on it, normally it has nothing to do with the private skill.

Your main point is south must pass even with zero point hand over pd's penalty double to opp's 1nt.

To be honest, this is just a classic content only for beginner and intermediate.

You are making a rediculous joke.

 

Lycier, you are just out of your depth here, you have no idea what you are talking about. Look, with a long suit and weak hand, it's reasonable to run, because you have somewhere to go. On balance you think that you can make your contract playing in your long suit, or escape for a small penalty, or that the opponents will bid over you. But with a bad hand, balanced, the odds change. You aren't going to take that many more tricks playing in your long suit, because it's substantially less likely you have an 8+ fit there, and with flat hands you don't gain tricks as often with ruffing vs. just playing in NT, as compared to unbalanced hands. So *a lot* of players play that weak balanced hands you just pass and take your chances. This can pay off both when any of:

1. Partner doubled on like a 20 count and has your weak hand covered with extra HCP.

2. Partner has a good long suit and entries, bolstered by your 3 cd support (at least if you are balanced, if partner leads a long suit it's not your singleton!), and has the timing to take 7 tricks even though your side is short on points.

3. Even though the opponents make 1nt-x, the penalty of 180, 280, 380 or whatever is less than the -300/-500 you might get by running.

 

It loses when the above didn't happen, and partner randomly hits with 4 cd fit for your one suit, or the opps weren't going to figure out to double you, or something of that nature.

 

You are probably in a bad spot on average when partner doubles and you are broke, but the fact of the matter is that you aren't super likely to get to a substantially better spot by running. At least by passing, you pick up some very good boards when partner is able to beat them by himself. And you still pick up something from people who run and give up -300 instead of -180.

 

If you say that South must always bid when weak, then how do you propose South runs?

1. South just bids his 4cd suit, North always sits. Then you reach ridiculous 4-2 and 4-1 fits and examples like were given previously where you are in some terrible contract down several when you had a chance to beat 1nt.

2. South bids 2c on 3, North is supposed to pass/bid suits up the line. This will get you to at least a 7 card fit if South is 4333, but often still misses your 4-4 fit. And now, this really hurts you when South has 5/6/7 clubs, when you really want North to be passing on stiff/doubletons/3, now he will be bidding instead. And what if South is like weak 3442, you want to play 4-2 club fit, bid clubs? What if South is 4432?

 

And if you want 2d to also only show 4, then you've hurt South's ability to show 5/6/7 diamonds AND clubs.

 

It's simply not possible to cater to all possibilities. The opening side, the 1nt that got doubled, can cater to more possibilities since they can potentially utilize both pass and redouble, if they want to play a complicated runout system. They also have the advantage of opener always being balanced and being a narrow range so they have a better idea that they are doing a reasonable thing. The intervening side, since the double is wide ranging (doubler can be very strong, running can be a mistake), and can be unbalanced (so responder running to his own suit has no guarantee of even partial fit), is in a much worse position to be playing such systems, especially since you can't redouble partner's double!

[ahydra]

Perhaps we might look at whether playing penalty X of a strong NT is worth it, as opposed to something like "any 4M5m". But otherwise, I agree 100% with what Stephen said.

 

ahydra

[Stefan_O]

Perhaps we might look at whether playing penalty X of a strong NT is worth it, as opposed to something like "any 4M5m". But otherwise, I agree 100% with what Stephen said.

ahydra

 

yeah... or make sure you only double with 18+hcp or 7 likely tricks, if pd is supposed to pass with any 0 hcp and no 5cd-suit.

 

I agree Doubling with any 15-16hcp has a tendency to backfire more often than not

But that's just my "gut-feeling" :) -- not based on actual statistics...

 

Otherwise, there is Brozel or similar...

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/5339-brozel-convention/

[johnu]

Would you confirm you and my opps are decent advanced or expert players?

When we posted the hand and made some comments on it, normally it has nothing to do with the private skill.

Your main point is south must pass even with zero point hand over pd's penalty double to opp's 1nt.

To be honest, this is just a classic content only for beginner and intermediate.

You are making a rediculous joke.

You really don't understand what the complete bidding system including Gib CC is.

 

OK, apparently I was wrong. You should also listen and try to absorb anything said by intermediate players, or beginners who have taken a series of bridge lessons from qualified instructors.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=s843hq73d9754c753&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1nd(penalty%20double)p?]133|200|On Gib CC, north double says penalty double.Face to penalty double, if I am south, I am not confident of defeating 1NT because of too weak hand, so I have to escape.[/hv]

Agree with JohnU. I rank

1. Pass = NAT If partner has long suit or 17+ HCP then West is likely to go down. If 1NX makes that may still be our cheapest option.
2. 2♣ = NAT. More wriggle-room. If 2♣ is doubled, then you can redouble or bid 2♦.
3. 2♦ = NAT. May leave you with some explaining to do, especially if partner has fewer than 3 ♦s.

[helene_t]

Would you confirm you and my opps are decent advanced or expert players?

Manudude03 is one of the top players in his country. He has played in the Irish selection at European youth championships, o.a.

[lycier]

Helene_t, very glad to read your reply, that's to say it is correct for all what experts said, whether or not study or good at Gib system. I would learn from all experts.

[lycier]

Agree with JohnU. I rank

1. Pass = NAT If partner has long suit or 17+ HCP then West is likely to go down. If 1NX makes that may still be our cheapest option.
2. 2♣ = NAT. More wriggle-room. If 2♣ is doubled, then you can redouble or bid 2♦.
3. 2♦ = NAT. May leave you with some explaining to do, especially if partner has fewer than 3 ♦s.

 

Really don't know what you said, their points is only pass after double, your definitions of 2♣/♦ are not out of their option.

[lycier]

If you aren't going to take me seriously, fine, but here's a layout I've come up with in about 2 seconds.

[hv=pc=n&s=s765h7654d432c542&w=sakj9haqt9d976cj8&n=s432h32dakqtcakqt&e=sqt8hkj8dj85c9763&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1ndp2hdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

If south had just left the hand alone, he was going to end +500. Since he pulled it to 2H, he is now going for -800. North doesn't have anything to pull it to, 2NT is off the first 8 tricks and 3m is a wild gamble which can be held to 7 tricks with accurate defense. Also he doesn't know if partner has 4 or 6 hearts.

 

Everyone knows it normally bid 2♣.

2♥=fool, is it a option of your expert?

[manudude03]

Everyone knows it normally bid 2♣.

2♥=fool, is it a option of your expert?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s765h7654d432c542&w=sakj9h93d976cakqt&n=s432hakqtdakqtcj8&e=sqt8hj82dj85c9763&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=1ndp2cdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Now who's the fool? After all, North has no idea how many clubs south has so pass seems reasonable. South can't really risk a redouble (what if partner is 3334?)

[1eyedjack]

If we're to run to 2C on 3-4-3-3 (which I would not, incidentally) then it would be with a commitment to redoubling, expecting to scramble to a 4-3 fit somewhere (not 100% guaranteed)

 

You are still going down in 2C on the first of the above 2 hands. 3 rounds of Spades then 3 rounds of Hearts. If declarer ruffs trick 6 it promotes East's trump. So by running you have still just converted a plus into a minus.

 

I feel that Lycier is equating the priorities for running with the scenario where your own 1N opener is doubled although I normally (away from GIB) play in weak NT fields which again changes the dynamics. Who really plays pen X v strong NT in real life?

[lycier]

If we're to run to 2C on 3-4-3-3 (which I would not, incidentally) then it would be with a commitment to redoubling, expecting to scramble to a 4-3 fit somewhere (not 100% guaranteed)

 

You are still going down in 2C on the first of the above 2 hands. 3 rounds of Spades then 3 rounds of Hearts. If declarer ruffs trick 6 it promotes East's trump. So by running you have still just converted a plus into a minus.

 

I feel that Lycier is equating the priorities for running with the scenario where your own 1N opener is doubled although I normally (away from GIB) play in weak NT fields which again changes the dynamics. Who really plays pen X v strong NT in real life?

Yes and No.

It silly me !!! now I got it.

The real definition of this double is the doubler have ability to make with tricks or overwhelming power, so partner is requested to pass.

Then this should show Gib CC is pretty correct because only especially when with 5 cards minor suit in the hand, partner can be able to decide escaping to a safty minor contract, or it would rather pass whatever its result is good or bad.

Many thanks to you for your reminder.

[lycier]

However , if the real definition of this double is penalty with 16+hcp, my point is correct with no doubt.

Here I got a evidence hand for today.

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=wu12280&s=SAKQJT764H5D4CK86&wn=Robot&w=S2H73DQJ62CAT9732&nn=Robot&n=S53HKJT984D98753C&en=Robot&e=S98HAQ62DAKTCQJ54&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=P1N(notrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20%21C%3B%202-5%20%21D%3B%202-5%20%21H%3B%202-5%20%21S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points)D(Penalty%20double%20--%2016+%20HCP)P2D(5+%20%21D%3B%204-%20HCP)P2S(4+%20%21S%3B%2019+%20total%20points)3C(twice%20rebiddable%20%21C%3B%208%20total%20points)3H(5+%20%21D%3B%204+%20%21H%3B%203-%20%21S%3B%204-%20HCP%3B%206+%20total%20points)D(2-5%20%21C%3B%202-5%20%21D%3B%205-%20%21H%3B%202-5%20%21S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%20biddable%20%21H%3B%2018-%20total%20points)3S(5+%20%21S%3B%2019+%20total%20points)4C(1-%20%21S%3B%20twice%20rebiddable%20%21C%3B%208%20total%20points)4S(5+%20%21D%3B%204+%20%21H%3B%203%20%21S%3B%204-%20HCP%3B%206+%20total%20points)PPP&p=D2D3DKD4S9SAS2S3C6C7S5C5D5DAS4D6SKC2H4S8SQH7H8H6SJCTH9H2H5H3HTHQDTS6DQD7STC9D8C4C8C3D9CJCQCKCAHJDJHKHAS7]400|300[/hv]

 

Some top expert opinion is not equal to the truth.

[1eyedjack]

However , if the real definition of this double is penalty with 16+hcp, my point is correct with no doubt.

Here I got a evidence hand for today.

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=wu12280&s=SAKQJT764H5D4CK86&wn=Robot&w=S2H73DQJ62CAT9732&nn=Robot&n=S53HKJT984D98753C&en=Robot&e=S98HAQ62DAKTCQJ54&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=P1N(notrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20%21C%3B%202-5%20%21D%3B%202-5%20%21H%3B%202-5%20%21S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points)D(Penalty%20double%20--%2016+%20HCP)P2D(5+%20%21D%3B%204-%20HCP)P2S(4+%20%21S%3B%2019+%20total%20points)3C(twice%20rebiddable%20%21C%3B%208%20total%20points)3H(5+%20%21D%3B%204+%20%21H%3B%203-%20%21S%3B%204-%20HCP%3B%206+%20total%20points)D(2-5%20%21C%3B%202-5%20%21D%3B%205-%20%21H%3B%202-5%20%21S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%20biddable%20%21H%3B%2018-%20total%20points)3S(5+%20%21S%3B%2019+%20total%20points)4C(1-%20%21S%3B%20twice%20rebiddable%20%21C%3B%208%20total%20points)4S(5+%20%21D%3B%204+%20%21H%3B%203%20%21S%3B%204-%20HCP%3B%206+%20total%20points)PPP&p=D2D3DKD4S9SAS2S3C6C7S5C5D5DAS4D6SKC2H4S8SQH7H8H6SJCTH9H2H5H3HTHQDTS6DQD7STC9D8C4C8C3D9CJCQCKCAHJDJHKHAS7]400|300[/hv]

 

Some top expert opinion is not equal to the truth.

Which of your points do you maintain that this hand supports?

Earlier you wanted to pull the penalty double, and the other contributors say no, you should leave the penalty double in. On this hand, pulling the double converted a positive result into a negative result. If anything this tends to suggest leaving the double in.

 

Not that I think that anyone in their right mind would pass the double with North, but the result is hardly a ringing endorsement of bidding.

 

Incidentally, 2D??? Seriously??? *THAT* is worthy of a bit of attention by the programmers, I think.

[lycier]

Keep calm.

I have played with Gibs over 100,000 hands, the probability of such hand is 1/10,000-15,000. And I would tell you the fact many doubler only with 16+hcp in the balanced hand makes a penalty, but opps could make its 1nt contract. It's not a rare thing, young Englishman.

If this double is to make with tricks or very strong power, partner must pass in any situation.

I found many times that you are very easy to get excitable, it shows you are not suitable for competition of the bridge game in fact.