1D - 2D - 3NT

[Liversidge]

Yesterday we played a pair where opener was 3-2-4-4 with 19 points, and opened 1♦. After his partner's 2♦ (with 8 points I think) opener bid 3NT which went off. Opener had just ♥Qx and his partner had ♥xx.

 

We have just started playing inverted minors where, after 1♦ - 2♦, we start cue bidding stoppers for 3NT investigation. Is there anything like that for this situation or do you just bid 3NT and accept that every now and again you will be unlucky?

[mycroft]

Well, this is a Canadian speaking, so SA-centric; but new suits after suit agreement are forcing (except where screamingly obvious), and the primary goal with a minor fit and game-going values is "look for 3NT". So, it seems "obvious" that 2M after 1♦-2♦ would have a similar meaning opposite a 6-9 raise as opposite a limit+ or GF+ raise, it's just that opener has the strength that responder lacks.

 

This is doubly true if 1♦-2♦ denies a major, which (given that it's passable, and frequently passed) is an even better idea in standard than in inverted. Unfortunately, very few good players don't play invm of one sort or another, and the weaker players may not have that ingrained yet.

 

So, it's more dangerous here than if you've agreed to play invm, but not because it's any different; just because the invm players have discussed this (with somebody, anyway) and are less likely to get it wrong.

 

Having said that, blasting frequently works - when opener has 8xxx for instance, and doesn't get the lead from Kx into AJxxx that if you show stoppers you've telegraphed.

[robert2734]

If opener with ♥ Qx was opposite Kxx or Axx, he wants to play 3NT from his side. If you have a stopper showing auction, the opponents know what to lead, even if you wind up in 5D. I'm a blaster and sometimes it don't work. It just has to work more often then the alternative.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

the inv. raise is forcing to 2NT or 3D, major suit bid show stoppers.

Given that 2D denies a 4 card major, you know, that they have a 8 card heart fit,

and a 7 card spade fit, so trying to see, if you have a heart stopper is certainly

not a bad idea, but blasting will also work.

The main problem with 3NT is, that you cut done any chance to investigate 6D.

After 2D, opener knowes, that most of the time, the partnership has 30+ points and a

fit, quite often a 9 card fit, what stops you from investigating 6D, without commiting

your side by bypassing 3NT? Add to this the advantage, that you avoid 3NT sometimes ...

 

Finally 8 is a bit light for a 2D bid, even in a weak NT context, it should be more like

9.5+.

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Liversidge]

 

Finally 8 is a bit light for a 2D bid, even in a weak NT context, it should be more like

9.5+.

 

Hi Marlowe,

 

sorry I wasn't clear enough with my post.

The pair that went off don't play inverted minors. We do, so with the same hands my partner and I would have bid 1♦ - 3♦. I was wondering whether there was a way for us to check for stops like we do after 1♦ - 2♦, such as: opener bids 3♥, showing a heart stop and asking for partner to bid 3NT with a spade stop, or bids 3♠, showing a spade stop and asking partner to bid 3NT with a heart stop. or some other device.

 

I take the point that by doing so you telegraph where your strengths and weaknesses lie, so it might be better just to blast to 3NT

[WesleyC]

When considering whether or not to blast 3NT on a hand like this, the main consideration should be whether your side is likely to have a better alternative contract.

 

Holding a balanced hand, the answer is usually "no". Even if 3NT can be defeated by accurate defense, it is still a better chance than making 11 tricks in Diamonds.

 

The same principle applies when considering whether you should explore for an alternative contract after partner's 1NT opening. Exploring for a major fit is usually correct (because 4M will often be a superior contract to 3NT), but without extreme shape or serious slam interest you are usually just blasting 3NT rather than exploring for a minor fit.

[msjennifer]

Playing standard system ,without any fancy gadgets,since 2 D shows a limited hand ,there in no safe way to avoid 3NT with a 3244 balanced hand.Just bid 3NT go down and forget the hand. No one can see but partner may produce Kxx in heart.Or in some deal even J xx may suffice.

[apollo1201]

Agree with Wesley's comments. I blasted once with xxx H and Q well guarded. Partner also had xxx H and after I lost the first 4 tricks, I made all the others. Obviously, 5D is off... So unless you have substantial extra strength or shape that may allow for 11 tricks, aiming for 3NT with "limited" and balanced material is surely best. Blasting or cueing is a matter of partnership's style, and all contributors mentionned the pros and cons of each method. Personally I use both.

On the hand you gave, a positional semi-stopper like Qx would probably tempt a lot into blasting in order to right-side the contract.

[robert2734]

Story time. I open a no trump with ♠ AJTx ♥ KQXX ♦ KXX ♣ QX at a real important tournament, pass, partner bids 3 diamonds invitational and 3 spades on my right. I wasn't going to accept but with a spade lead I'll try it. 3NT by me. Partner has ♠ xx ♥ Jxx ♦ AQTxxx ♣ xx. Spade lead to the queen ace. King of hearts, everybody ducks. Queen of hearts, everybody ducks. Six rounds of diamonds.

[Vampyr]

The main problem with 3NT is, that you cut done any chance to investigate 6D.

After 2D, opener knowes, that most of the time, the partnership has 30+ points and a

fit, quite often a 9 card fit, what stops you from investigating 6D, without commiting

your side by bypassing 3NT? Add to this the advantage, that you avoid 3NT sometimes ...

 

Here playing a weak NT has an advantage, as 1♦-2♦-2NT is forcing. A useful gadget is that 1m-2m-next step is an unbalanced GF (not applicable here, but does aid in finding slams).

[Liversidge]

Re playing a weak NT has an advantage, as 1♦-2♦-2NT is forcing. A useful gadget is that 1m-2m-next step is an unbalanced GF (not applicable here, but does aid in finding slams).

 

As we play inverted minors, on this hand the bidding would go 1♦ - 3♦, so for us the choices seem to be to blast to 3NT or cue bid for stops in the majors.

[Cyberyeti]

As we play inverted minors, on this hand the bidding would go 1♦ - 3♦, so for us the choices seem to be to blast to 3NT or cue bid for stops in the majors.

 

Is your inverted minor forcing to game or merely forcing for one round (ie what's the max for 3♦) ?

[Liversidge]

Is your inverted minor forcing to game or merely forcing for one round (ie what's the max for 3♦) ?

We play that after 1♦, 3♦ shows a minimum raise (6-9 points) and 2♦ shows 10-12 points and is forcing to 3♦.

[Vampyr]

As we play inverted minors, on this hand the bidding would go 1♦ - 3♦, so for us the choices seem to be to blast to 3NT or cue bid for stops in the majors.

 

A problem with inverted minors is that the 0-9 range for a 3m response is too wide and too high for invitational sequences. A solution is to make the 3m bid mixed raise type, and use 2NT as your weakest raise. Maybe reversing these is better; I really don't know.

[billw55]

I don't see anything wrong with the auction. As little as ♥Jxx or T9xx opposite is enough, and even lacking that they don't always lead the suit. If you never go down you aren't bidding enough.

[Cyberyeti]

We play that after 1♦, 3♦ shows a minimum raise (6-9 points) and 2♦ shows 10-12 points and is forcing to 3♦.

 

Do you mean 10-12 or 10+ ? it's a bit wasted as 10-12.

 

OK, 6-9 then you don't have the problem that partner with a flat 19 is worried there might be a slam on enough of the time to have to think about it.

 

My inclination is to just blast 3N particularly at MPs where pinpointing the lead may get you a poor score even when 3N makes.

[Liversidge]

Do you mean 10-12 or 10+ ? it's a bit wasted as 10-12.

 

OK! 10+

[akwoo]

A problem with inverted minors is that the 0-9 range for a 3m response is too wide and too high for invitational sequences. A solution is to make the 3m bid mixed raise type, and use 2NT as your weakest raise. Maybe reversing these is better; I really don't know.

 

My preference is for 3m to be the weakest raise and jump shift in other minor to be the mixed raise.

[Cyberyeti]

My preference is for 3m to be the weakest raise and jump shift in other minor to be the mixed raise.

 

We use 2N as a raise to split the 0-9

[fromageGB]

Here playing a weak NT has an advantage, as 1♦-2♦-2NT is forcing. A useful gadget is that 1m-2m-next step is an unbalanced GF (not applicable here, but does aid in finding slams).

I don't think this is anything to do with weak NT. I play 15/16 NT, and 1♦ 2♦ 2 any is forcing, but this is with an unbalanced diamond, not a better minor type.

[Vampyr]

I don't think this is anything to do with weak NT. I play 15/16 NT, and 1♦ 2♦ 2 any is forcing, but this is with an unbalanced diamond, not a better minor type.

 

When opener has a weak NT and responder has a minimum do you sign off in 3♦ then?

[Caitlynne]

I am confused. You describe a commonly used solution, noting you have recently adopted that solution in a partnership, and then ask if a solution exists. Well, you explained one solution that exists!

 

There is no reason that opener could not have bid the spade stopper, allowing the partnership to discover the wide open situation in the heart suit.

[Cyberyeti]

I am confused. You describe a commonly used solution, noting you have recently adopted that solution in a partnership, and then ask if a solution exists. Well, you explained one solution that exists!

 

There is no reason that opener could not have bid the spade stopper, allowing the partnership to discover the wide open situation in the heart suit.

 

And this will ensure you of a bottom or a big loss when you play 4♦= and everybody else makes 3N either because they lead a spade or they only have 4 hearts to cash.

[Liversidge]

I am confused. You describe a commonly used solution, noting you have recently adopted that solution in a partnership, and then ask if a solution exists. Well, you explained one solution that exists!

Now I am confused! I said we use inverted minors where responder bids 2 ♦ with 10+ points and opener can start cue bidding for stops at the 2 level. That's not the position with the hand I quoted. Playing inverted minors my partner would have responded 3♦ with 6-9 points, but now cue bidding would have to start at the 3 level, and I was asking if it was still a good idea. Several posters have said they would prefer to blast 3NT rather than cue bid and end up in 3NT with the strong hand on the table or in 4♦ having telegraphed weakness. I think it was a reasonable question and I got what I reckon is good advice.

[mikestar13]

I've played inverted minors where opener shows a stiff if he has one and blasts 3NT if he doesn't. With ♥x rather than ♥Qx, the defenders will find the heart lead whether you tip it or not, so finding out if partner can stop the suit is a good percentage bet. If your distribution is more balanced, there is a good chance they won't find the lead if you don't tip it. More sophisticated methods would allow responder to show a stiff as well, at least in the 1m-2m case.