Light Opening Bid in 3rd Seat

[Liversidge]

I am trying to get my head round this.

Klinger says that the suit opened in third seat should have good quality, one you would like partner to lead to you if you end up defending. He also says that partner should not expect you to bid again, and if you do he should assume you did not open light.

 

So you might open ♠92 ♥ KJT74 ♦Q32 ♣A32 and hear partner respond 1♠ with four spades and 10 HCP, which might be passed out.

 

Could someone explain the rationale thanks.

[hrothgar]

I am trying to get my head round this.

Klinger says that the suit opened in third seat should have good quality, one you would like partner to lead to you if you end up defending. He also says that partner should not expect you to bid again, and if you do he should assume you did not open light.

 

So you might open ♠92 ♥ KJT74 ♦Q32 ♣A32 and hear partner respond 1♠ with four spades and 10 HCP, which might be passed out.

 

Could someone explain the rationale thanks.

 

If I chose to open the hand in question (and I'm not sure that I would) I would rebid 1N over a 1♠ advance.

 

Partner might play me for a full opener, however, I'll be well positioned opposite any rebid.

Worst comes to worst, we'll be in 2♠ rather than one, but if so partner has a real spade suit.

[apollo1201]

The rationale for light opening in 3rd is that strength could be at best 4u balanced between the 2 sides. So you must try to fight for the partscore, indicate a good lead, and from times to times find a good game or sacrifice. All that is similar to the objective of an intervention. That is why opening a hand which is an "unconditionally clear" intervention is allowed, provided you have means to pull the brakes.

 

In all cases with the hand you gave, I would not pass 1S in a potential 4-2 fit. Hrothgar comments are completely ok. Partner should not propell you to 2NT or above and you need some kind of relays to describe opener's strength and shape if responder is max of his initial pass.

[helene_t]

Personally I only open light in 3rd seat when I am prepared to pass any response, knowing that we have a 7-card fit. I would assume that partner usually has a 5-card suit for a 2-level response, so a doubleton in a lower ranking suit is ok, but I won't have a doubleton above my opening suit.

[vylette]

A good rule of thumb, which almost ALWAYS turns out to be right for me is that if you dont have a opening or weak, and no one has bid yet: HCP + your # of spades is less than 15, dont open 3rd or 4th seat. So with that hand you have 10HCP and 2 spades, so that is 12, dont open.

[Vampyr]

A good rule of thumb, which almost ALWAYS turns out to be right for me is that if you dont have a opening or weak, and no one has bid yet: HCP + your # of spades is less than 15, dont open 3rd or 4th seat. So with that hand you have 10HCP and 2 spades, so that is 12, dont open.

 

Pearson points are commonly used for fourth seat openings; using them in third seat is unusual.

[P_Marlowe]

I am trying to get my head round this.

Klinger says that the suit opened in third seat should have good quality, one you would like partner to lead to you if you end up defending. He also says that partner should not expect you to bid again, and if you do he should assume you did not open light.

 

So you might open ♠92 ♥ KJT74 ♦Q32 ♣A32 and hear partner respond 1♠ with four spades and 10 HCP, which might be passed out.

 

Could someone explain the rationale thanks.

light 3rd seat opener

 

#1 usually a major, light 3rd seat opener are basically pointless doing with a minor suit, others may disagree

#2 spades rule, in which case you either get a raise, or a 1NT response, to avoid 2C / 2D responses, you can introduce Drury

#3 with hearts, have a rebid, without a rebid consider a weak2

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Liversidge]

If I chose to open the hand in question (and I'm not sure that I would) I would rebid 1N over a 1♠ advance.

 

Partner might play me for a full opener, however, I'll be well positioned opposite any rebid.

Worst comes to worst, we'll be in 2♠ rather than one, but if so partner has a real spade suit.

 

I should have said we play Acol and the weak No Trump, so can't rebid 1NT. What other rebid is there?

[1eyedjack]

I should have said we play Acol and the weak No Trump, so can't rebid 1NT. What other rebid is there?

Well, if you were so balanced as to justify considering a weak 1N rebid, but for the fact that the 1N rebid in your system is strong, then your choices are either to open 1N or to ensure that you have 3 card support for any higher ranking side suit, or 2 cards in any lower ranking, and then pass any non-forcing response.

[hrothgar]

I should have said we play Acol and the weak No Trump, so can't rebid 1NT. What other rebid is there?

 

If you can't stomache a 2♦ rebid, then you should have either passed or opened 1N

[Zelandakh]

I should have said we play Acol and the weak No Trump, so can't rebid 1NT. What other rebid is there?

With this shape and close to a real opening bid it is usually worth considering a 1NT opening to try and preempt the spade suit. If you had ♣J instead of a small one this would surely be your choice.

 

More controversial would be to open 1♣ and pass any response except 1♥. The point of that would be that it increases the chance of partner holding 5 spades. If LHO overcalls 1♠ and it comes back to you, you can double on shape despite the minimum values. If LHO has a big hand, the 1♣ opening disrupts the opps' auction despite not taking up any space providing they are not advanced.

 

The suggested sequence of opening 1♥ is even more preemptive but increases the likelihood of ending up in a 4-2 spade fit on a part-score hand. It is the sort of action that might be great but is equally likely to backfire. Strangley enough, I would be more tempted by this action with a genuine (0-3hcp) psyche. Now the chances of going down against nothing are close to nothing whilst the extra preemption is certain to be in our favour.

 

In any case, bidding creatively in 3rd seat is an area of the game that I think is sadly neglected. With a little imagination you can get away with a lot here and come away with a decent sized plus, particularly playing against typical club level opponents.

[WesleyC]

When considering whether to open holding a weakish hand in 3rd seat, the most important thing is to remember that bridge is a 4-player game.

 

Considreing the example hand: You hold only 10 HCP after two passes, so the opponents are likely to have the balance of the high cards. On average your LHO will hold about 13 or 14 HCP, with the rest split among the two passed hands. The opponents are also more likely to control the spade suit so if it does turn out to be a partscore battle, they will have the upper hand.

 

Based on these two facts you expect to go negative on this board! Rather than worrying about what you will rebid and how you will reach your optimal contract, you should be thinking about how you can put the opponent's under pressure. You want to make it difficult for them to reach THEIR optimal contract and when they do win the auction, you want to give your side the best chance on defense.

 

Opening some number of hearts achieves both of these goals.

 

If our side is Non-Vulnerable then a 2H opening would be a popular choice among modern experts. This bid applies the maximum pressure, gives you some chance to steal the contract, conceals your hand strength and solves any rebid problems.

 

If our side is Vulnerable, preempting is a little too risky. You should open 1H, and worry about your rebid problem later. Most of the time the opponents will intervene and you will be off the hook!

[wank]

Playing weak no trump isn't conducive to light openers because you often don't have a rebid if partner responds in your doubleton at the 1 level as per this hand. With a near opener p might also have to respond at the 2 level on a 4 card suit which is vomit worthy to cater for your having a strong NT, leaving you in a similar situation at the 2 level.

 

Still you have to do your best. I'd rebid 2c.

 

Btw weak nt in 3rd is a spicy strategy. Weak nt vul in 3rd would be a straight up bad strategy.

 

As with all authors, don't assume ron klinger's a good player just because he can string together a sentence.

[rhm]

Pearson points are commonly used for fourth seat openings; using them in third seat is unusual.

If that is so I do not understand the rationale.

Fourth hand decides to pass out of he has no spades expecting on average a profit, which if I am in third seat means a loss for my side.

Should I then not try to avoid this loss and open if I hold spades in third seat if I have a close decision?

 

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

You can use them in 3rd seat too, if you like, so long as you don't draw the line at 14 (or 15 :o ). 12 sounds more like it to me. Although I'm not sure why I should pass hands with hearts in 3rd just because I have few spades. So I use the gwnn rule in 3rd seat (similar but less effective than the Bowles/gnasher rule): I look at my hand and open it if it looks like I should open it. In practice, there probably isn't a big difference between opening in 3rd seat and overcalling on the 1 level for me.

[helene_t]

Suppose you hold A-Kxx-QJxx-Qxxxx

You would probably pass that hand in 4th seat. Shouldn't you pass it in 3rd seat for the same reason?

[gwnn]

I wouldn't pass in 3rd seat. Opps will probably find their heart/spade fit no matter what I do and I'll be behind in the fight for the partscore if I pass now. 4th seat it's close for me but ultimately I'd err on the side of not sitting at the bar making awkward small talk for an extra 8 minutes and open it (assuming my opps know about opening light in 3rd hand and my partner knows about the green card).

[fromageGB]

Another alternative is to open a weak 2M with 5 or 6 cards. This hand qualifies. Perhaps only do this when partner has passed, otherwise keep to 6 card. The big advantage is that you have have completely normal meaningful bidding when you do open 1M, without distortions caused by grafting in Drury or somesuch.

[gwnn]

This hand qualifies.

I don't think it does. Too much outside and we are too red.

 

edit: thought I read somehow that we are vulnerable but it's not given.

[fromageGB]

Too much outside

Read this in connection with the current thread on WJO. You have the agreement that there are no rules or expectations. 2M is an advanced WJO, in the same meaning of "advanced" as used with "sacrifice".

[gwnn]

I don't care what partner expects*. When you preempt too high, you're often likely to turn a possible plus into a certain minus. I played crazy preempts before and me and my partner both expected them. After a while we could also expect bad scores we got from the painful 5-2 fits which we played in 2M instead of easily beating their 1NT or whatever.

 

*-I mean, of course I care what he/she expects, all I'm saying is if even if they know exactly what my style is, there are losing styles out there.

[Zelandakh]

I played crazy preempts before and me and my partner both expected them.

Is opening a ♥KJTxx suit at the 2 level in third "crazy"? Even when NV?

[gwnn]

Is opening a ♥KJTxx suit at the 2 level in third "crazy"? Even when NV?

no sorry, I was unclear in my wording. I don't think it is crazy. I just reacted to the notion (apparently espoused to some degree by fromageGB) that opening 2M on 5332's with a lot of defense outside is OK as long as partner knows about this. I think of course partner knowing makes very loose preempting better than him/her not knowing, but it's not so simple. You still bid a contract and you will still need to try to make it some of the time.

 

On this hand, I don't like 2H too much but I wouldn't call it crazy. I mostly thought fromage's "This hand qualifies." was a bit too categorical. If I agreed to open 2H on 5-card suits, this still wouldn't be in my range (it would be close to it but not inside). I would open 2H on the same hand with only one of the two external cards when NV (if I had the agreement to have 5332's in my 2H).

[Zelandakh]

Thanks for explaining further Csaba. Although I suspect I pre-empt slightly more loosely than you, it does sound like your position is basically the same as mine. And in truth I would not be surprised if fromage is similar but just slightly further along the spectrum from me. As you say, there comes a point where pre-empting is no longer useful. Like you, I would tend to define that more in terms of ODR than strictly according to suit length, which I think (but might be wrong) is the basic point fromage wanted to make.

[fromageGB]

Yes, I am a little further along the spectrum, but not that much. I do open weak 2Ms on both 5 card 6 card suits, and while I would open 2♥ with the OP hand, I would prefer to do so without the diamond Q. Playing this with 2 regular partners, I have found that it is better than break-even at MPs. I don't do it at IMPS.

 

While a weak 2 has length defined, of course, the length is less defined than a normal weak 2! It is more a matter of wishing to compete, and wanting to keep the integrity of a 1-level open.

 

Sometimes the results are painful. Exponents of the style don't mind looking foolish occasionally, as long as they can more often feel vindicated. My position in this thread is to suggest the style for Liversidge's consideration in 3rd seat, as an alternative to passing or opening 1♥.