PhilG007 Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Obviously 1♦ and over a 1NT response,pass. Partner has denied a four card major,made a limited response and since you also are minimum,there is no point in proceeding any further...indeed it would be foolish to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Obviously 1♦ and over a 1NT response,pass. That wasn't the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilG007 Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 That wasn't the question. ???? The poster asked the question "what do you open here?" And I gave my answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 ???? The poster asked the question "what do you open here?" And I gave my answerThey also posed the follow-up question: "Partner responds 2C. What is your rebid?" The question of a 1NT response came much later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilG007 Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 They also posed the follow-up question: "Partner responds 2C. What is your rebid?" The question of a 1NT response came much later.In that case,I would rebid 2NT. Not happy about the singleton club but since you are compelled to rebid,its the onlysensible bid in the circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tramticket Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 The 2NT rebid doesn't just overstate the number of clubs, it also overstates the strength of the hand (promising 15+ and forcing to game opposite a possible 10 HCP). There is no way round this, you have to tell a lie. Either you open a major showing a five-card suit in the major; or you open 1D and rebid 2D over 2C promising a 5-card diamond suit; or you open 1NT which is in the correct no trump range but you have a singleton trump; or you open 1D and rebid 2NT as above. Even worse is to open 1S/1H and rebid 2NT - deceiving partner about the number of cards in the major and the honour strength! Nothing is attractive and I believe the least lie is to lie about suit length in the minors - at least you are only playing the possible 4-2 "fit" at the two-level! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 At MPs in 3rd seat, opening this hand anything other than 1♠ is criminal. What a nonsense.Why agree playing 5 card majors if you do not intent to do so? The 1♠ bid takes away the opponents chance to bid at the 1 level and will get our side off to the winning lead whenever LHO wins the auction. Looks to me as if we have everything covered at the one-level. Sometimes it can be a clever idea to take away the opponents chance to bid at the 1 level, unfortunately on some other hand.With a good opener I do not distort my opening bid for the sole purpose of indicating a lead, whether I am in first, second third or fourth position. Rainer Herrmann. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 They also posed the follow-up question: "Partner responds 2C. What is your rebid?" The question of a 1NT response came much later.What is the problem of a 2♣ response to 1♦? Partner has no 4 card major, nor did he raise diamonds, which he should with 4 cards, no 4 card major and an unbalanced hand. He would not bid 2♣ with a balanced hand, knowing that 2♣ is not forcing by a passed hand, so partner should have 6 cards in clubs.Accept that this hand is a misfit and pass. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 What is the problem of a 2♣ response to 1♦? Partner has no 4 card major What ? Qxxx, xx, Kx, AJ10xx would be 1♦-2♣ to many acol players (who can bid 2♠ over 2♦ safe in the knowledge they're limited by failure to open) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 What ? Qxxx, xx, Kx, AJ10xx would be 1♦-2♣ to many acol players (who can bid 2♠ over 2♦ safe in the knowledge they're limited by failure to open)You conveniently ignore that 2♣ is not forcing by a passed hand. Accordingly a 2♣ bid should deny a 4 card major unless you do not mind playing clubs even if opener has four spades. The logic is similar to responding to a takeout DBL. You do not respond in a longer minor with an unbid major. Rainer Herrmann 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 He would not bid 2♣ with a balanced hand, knowing that 2♣ is not forcing by a passed hand, so partner should have 6 cards in clubs.Would you really prefer a 2NT response with 10+-11 and 3334/(332)5? That strikes me as being at least as dangerous. There is merit in the approach you advocate - it is essentially how my system works - but I am not so sure it is so successful in this natural context as when the responses are designed around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 You conveniently ignore that 2♣ is not forcing by a passed hand. Accordingly a 2♣ bid should deny a 4 card major unless you do not mind playing clubs even if opener has four spades. The logic is similar to responding to a takeout DBL. You do not respond in a longer minor with an unbid major. Rainer Herrmann We play it forcing as do most people I know, we don't distort our system that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msjennifer Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 We play it forcing as do most people I know, we don't distort our system that much.We also play it as one round forcing whether a passed hand or not.we also don't like to twist and turn the system.In my opinion any system that proves right in 90 percent of unopposed bidding is an excellent bidding system..Any system in the world can not bid all hands perfectly.Garozzos Super Precision system comes very near to the objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zgrywus Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 I would open 1♦, and if played w/polish standards/players rebid 2NT over 2♣which shows precisely 11-14(15) 4441, if 2Nt is not an option I have to rebid 2♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akwoo Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 I'm happy to open 1H and and rebid 2N over 2C, treating the hand as being worth 15 even though it's not. Take away a J or even TS and I have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekthen Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 I would like to think my partner would bid 1M with a 4M 5c handAs he is a passed hand his shape is 3325, 3316 or 3235 if he bids 1D 2C.So I am probably going to pass 2C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 Would you really prefer a 2NT response with 10+-11 and 3334/(332)5? That strikes me as being at least as dangerous. There is merit in the approach you advocate - it is essentially how my system works - but I am not so sure it is so successful in this natural context as when the responses are designed around it.I strongly prefer a 1NT response, particularly playing pairs, but I rather bid 2NT than 2♣.Admittedly this is more of an issue, playing weak notrumps. But if you open light opposite a passed partner, it is better if opener does the inviting. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 We play it forcing as do most people I know, we don't distort our system that much.We also play it as one round forcing whether a passed hand or not.we also don't like to twist and turn the system.In my opinion any system that proves right in 90 percent of unopposed bidding is an excellent bidding system..Any system in the world can not bid all hands perfectly.Garozzos Super Precision system comes very near to the objective.You can play what you like. However, I really can not see any benefit why a natural bid of a limited hand should be considered forcing. It makes no sense and the vast majority of players agrees with this principle that it should not be forcing. You are on your own if you claim this to be a "distortion" Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 I strongly prefer a 1NT response, particularly playing pairs, but I rather bid 2NT than 2♣.Admittedly this is more of an issue, playing weak notrumps. But if you open light opposite a passed partner, it is better if opener does the inviting.Unless you can invite and stay low, as with Drury. I would tend to agree that the modified 2/1 structure is better but it is also not unproblematic. What I much prefer is to use the first step (1♥ over a 1♦ opening) to show the invitational hand and the other calls to be natural and weak, with 1NT covering the suit used for the relay (hearts). I think that gives (most of) the best of both worlds, particularly when combined with an unbalanced diamond opening, and also works (even better) for 3rd and 4th seat 1M openings. Not that even something like this solves everything, of course. I have not yet seen any method that can do everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 You can play what you like. However, I really can not see any benefit why a natural bid of a limited hand should be considered forcing. It makes no sense and the vast majority of players agrees with this principle that it should be not forcing. You are on your own if you claim this to be a "distortion" Rainer Herrmann If you play your opening bids very sound (we don't) a minimum opening bid can't pass a 2♣ response as game can easily be on for example.We don't make the sort of semi-psychic 3rd hand opening that might pass, we open those at the 2 level. I see no evidence for your assertion that the vast majority of players agree it's NF, round here I know nobody for whom it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 I see no evidence for your assertion that the vast majority of players agree it's NF, round here I know nobody for whom it is.That does no more than confirm what we already know - that players in different places play the game differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 I will make the normal 1♦ opening. This requires some detailed discussion and/or some good luck if partner responds 2♣. But sometimes the auction proceeds otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 That does no more than confirm what we already know - that players in different places play the game differently. Indeed, that was the in a way point I was making, saying "the vast majority" is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 Maybe the World outside Norfolk, Australia and Leeds counts as "the vast majority of places"? Sorry, didn't mean to be sarcastic, just didn't have anything more intelligent to say :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 Sorry, didn't mean to be sarcastic, just didn't have anything more intelligent to say :)If I restricted myself to times when I had something intelligent to say, I would probably not post more than twice a year! :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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