Pass or invite?

[silvr bull]

Playing 12-14 NT at matchpoints with a good partner against unknown opps, is your hand worth an invitation to game?

 

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[Tramticket]

Surely you made your decision to treat the hand as invitational on the last round? If you don't think that you have invitational values, I think that you should pass 1NT - else what do you bid over a 2D response?

 

I think that this is an easy invite at IMPs, but close at match-point pairs. But having bid Stayman I feel that I should follow it through and invite with 3S.

[wank]

Surely you made your decision to treat the hand as invitational on the last round? If you don't think that you have invitational values, I think that you should pass 1NT - else what do you bid over a 2D response?

 

 

Faulty logic. It's fine to bid stayman on weak 44s planning to bid 2h over 2d and make partner choose a 43 fit. A very sensible MP gamble.

 

But anyway this hand is easily good enough to invite.

[ahydra]

Not even close for me. I'd invite every day of the week.

 

ahydra

[kenberg]

Not usually playing a weak NT, I approached it this way: Suppose. playing an 11-15 NT. it had gone 1m-1♠-2♠. Would I invite? Sure. Seems to me to be the same thing here (except for who declares). So I invite.Ok, with two four card majors the auction would not have gone exactly like that, but as for deciding whether to invite, I don't see that it matters.

[Jinksy]

Swap the major suits and I'd hesitate. Here it seems like we've hit the jackpot.

[billw55]

With the jack (and nine) in our fit suit all the honors are good quality, and the small doubleton is worth something too. Clear invite, closer to 4♠ than pass.

[apollo1201]

With 8 you invite over a 15-17NT so with 11 you should do so over a 12-14 NT. On top of that, the hand has excellet features (side AK+K and small doubleton). So even in MPs it is clear.

 

The digression about planning to play a 4-3 fit at the 2 level if partner answers 2D is just nonsense. When you are not weak, you pass 1NT if you are 44 , and you invite with an inviting hand which is what I have right now.

[ggwhiz]

Swap the major suits and I'd hesitate. Here it seems like we've hit the jackpot.

 

I agree but would still invite with the swapped majors, hopefully without the hesitation :)

[kuhchung]

okay I really don't agree with the whole "inviting with 8 opposite 15-17" and similarly, i don't get inviting with 11 opposite 12-14**

 

you have somewhere from 23-25 highs, and you're going to risk playing 3S with 23-24 in order to reach a magic 25 point game, which by the way, is not guaranteed to make, and it's matchpoints!

 

** ok ok 13 opposite 11 often plays better than 17 opposite 8. i just wanted to illustrate a point

[billw55]

okay I really don't agree with the whole "inviting with 8 opposite 15-17" and similarly, i don't get inviting with 11 opposite 12-14**

 

you have somewhere from 23-25 highs, and you're going to risk playing 3S with 23-24 in order to reach a magic 25 point game, which by the way, is not guaranteed to make, and it's matchpoints!

 

** ok ok 13 opposite 11 often plays better than 17 opposite 8. i just wanted to illustrate a point

I know you wouldn't, but this sounds like point counting.

 

The point is that this hand is worth at least 11+ with the spade fit and probably 12.

[kuhchung]

Alright, that becomes a different problem (hand evaluation.) I don't think this hand is any sort of magical 11 count.

 

edit: Also, when it comes to balanced hands, I think point counting is pretty useful :)

[kuhchung]

The Rueful Rabbit is right. I am waiting for the abuse from everyone, and the waiting is the most trying part.

[Winstonm]

MPs is still bridge and this hand should produce a reasonable expectation of game opposite most 13-14 point hands with a spade fit, IMO.

[billw55]

edit: Also, when it comes to balanced hands, I think point counting is pretty useful :)

Agree, but I still upgrade after finding the fit. J9xx of trump and a side xx are worth more than 1 point right? And I think most people will evaluate ♥AKxx as 7+.

 

I mean there are plenty of ordinary hands like

 

♠KQxx

♥Qx

♦Qxx

♣Axxx

 

... where opener may even decline the invite but game is still quite good. Also opener can still have 5 spades sometimes, the opening lead may help, etc.

[Tramticket]

I tend to agree Kuhchung! It's not a great 11 count for no trumps,I would rather downgrade than upgrade the hand. A pretty balanced 11 count, with no intermediates. That's why I might have passed on the first round. Playing match points, it can be poor tactics to invite - it's often better to either bid the game or pass.

 

But the hand has improved now we have a fit, and we are looking to play a trump contract - so I think you have to follow through now and invite game.

[BillPatch]

I agree with those that I have a fair hand, but not quite a game invitation on the first round opposisite a yulnerable WNT. Because I am short in clubs, I can use stayman to explore a fit. Since I have both majors, there is roughly 52% chance that an 8 card major fit exists, and I would in that case invite. Otherwise, 2/3 of openener's 2 diamond rebids are real suitsand even if that fails my hnd will often have a natural trump ruffing trick in diamonds. I plan to pass 2 diamonds.

 

If I had a similar hand with the minors reversed. I would have bid staymen, but if made the slightly marginal game invitation with that hand. With a weaker hand with the minors reversed I would rebid the popular 2 hearts non-forcing treatment.

[wank]

I agree with those that I have a fair hand, but not quite a game invitation on the first round opposisite a yulnerable WNT. Because I am short in clubs, I can use stayman to explore a fit. Since I have both majors, there is roughly 52% chance that an 8 card major fit exists, and I would in that case invite. Otherwise, 2/3 of openener's 2 diamond rebids are real suitsand even if that fails my hnd will often have a natural trump ruffing trick in diamonds. I plan to pass 2 diamonds.

 

If I had a similar hand with the minors reversed. I would have bid staymen, but if made the slightly marginal game invitation with that hand. With a weaker hand with the minors reversed I would rebid the popular 2 hearts non-forcing treatment.

 

 

majors score more than minors. you only clearly lose out by bidding 2H when partner's 22 in the majors and even then if he's 2236 you're no worse off than passing 2D. 2D leaves you in a worse fit opposite (32)26, 3325, 3334 and an equal length but worse scoring fit opposite (32)44, 3343 and opposite all the hands with 5D you're normally going to score as well in a 43 major fit.

 

anyway with an 11 count you should still bid 2NT over 2d because no trumps scores considerably better than diamonds whether it's the 1,2,3,4,5,6 or 7 level.

[SteveMoe]

We have an 8 (or 9) card fit, only 8 losers (7.5 if you insist), and 3 prime cards outside partner's suit (working!). Auto 3♠. Thinking about raising is an underbid...

[BillPatch]

majors score more than minors. you only clearly lose out by bidding 2H when partner's 22 in the majors and even then if he's 2236 you're no worse off than passing 2D. 2D leaves you in a worse fit opposite (32)26, 3325, 3334 and an equal length but worse scoring fit opposite (32)44, 3343 and opposite all the hands with 5D you're normally going to score as well in a 43 major fit.

 

anyway with an 11 count you should still bid 2NT over 2d because no trumps scores considerably better than diamonds whether it's the 1,2,3,4,5,6 or 7 level.

ceteris paribus we prefer the major over the minor for the scoring bonus normally only when the major/ minor bot scores the contract with the same number of tricks. In the specific case of the hand posted there is usually a handling charge to ruff in the opener's short major if that be possible. Also the ruff will be in the stronger hand, where it is less likely to be needed. On the contrary if we play in a 4 3 diamond fit we know that the club doubleton can often enable us to set up a ruffing trick.

 

If opener preferences back to spades it is unlikely a heart ruff will be useful,

 

The reason I did not make the 11 hcp 2 NT try with the given hand was that I expect partner to accept with 13.00 hcp, so that the light invitation was as stated odds against compared to the 2 diamond leave-in.

[Vampyr]

majors score more than minors. you only clearly lose out by bidding 2H when partner's 22 in the majors and even then if he's 2236 you're no worse off than passing 2D. 2D leaves you in a worse fit opposite (32)26, 3325, 3334 and an equal length but worse scoring fit opposite (32)44, 3343 and opposite all the hands with 5D you're normally going to score as well in a 43 major fit.

 

anyway with an 11 count you should still bid 2NT over 2d because no trumps scores considerably better than diamonds whether it's the 1,2,3,4,5,6 or 7 level.

I don't think it's a particularly good idea to open 1NT with 2-2 in the majors. Partner might not only bid garbage Stayman, but also 4♣ (pick a major) or the like.

[nige1]

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Playing 12-14 NT at matchpoints with a good partner against unknown opps, is your hand worth an invitation to game?[/hv]

Assuming that 1N - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ is "Pass/correct", IMO Stayman is fine.

 

Now after 1N - 2♣ - 2♠, I rank

1. 3♠ = INV. 7-8 losers, top cards, so worth a try even at MPs.
2. Pass = NAT. At MPs, games should be better than 50-50. Kuhchung might well be right, in practice,
3. 4♠ = S/O. Landy game-try. Worth consideration at imps, but wrong at MPs

[wanoff]

I don't think it's a particularly good idea to open 1NT with 2-2 in the majors. Partner might not only bid garbage Stayman, but also 4♣ (pick a major) or the like.

 

It's not a particularly good idea to open 1C with 2245

[silvr bull]

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I did invite, but Murphy's Law is still in force. After going down one at 3S, partner informed me that I should pass 2S because I have only 11 HCP. Results improve bidding judgement. Thanks for all the comments.

[1eyedjack]

Or he could make 3S as another alternative solution