Bid this to game or slam

[dickiegera]

[hv=pc=n&s=s7haq93dj752caj72&n=s95h87dakq8ckq986&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1d1s]266|200[/hv]

 

 

Now what?

 

Should South open 1♣ rather than 1♦?

 

 

 

Thank you

[Cyberyeti]

We would open 1♦ and kick off with 3♣(fit) with the N hand, I don't think we're bidding a slam.

[dickiegera]

[hv=pc=n&s=s7haq93dj752caj72&n=s95h87dakq8ckq986&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1d1s]266|200[/hv]

 

 

Now what?

 

Should South open 1♣ rather than 1♦?

 

 

 

Thank you

 

[hv=d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1c1s2sp3hp4cppp]133|100|This was our POOR BIDDING[/hv]

[Cyberyeti]

[hv=d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1c1s2sp3hp4cppp]133|100|This was our POOR BIDDING[/hv]

 

N cannot let bidding die before game with a 14 count opposite an opening bid.

 

If 4♣ isn't forcing, he has to bid 3♠ first or jump to 5♣ or bid 4♦.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1) Ok, as far as I see, you need the heart finesse to be on, this means 50%,

so staying out seems to be not the end of the world, but you want to be in game.

 

2) What you do with 44 in the minors is a matter of partnership agreement,

which you decide upfront, we open diamonds.

 

3) regarding the bidding, your 1st seq. is different than your 2nd regarding the

start, see 1), how the auction develops after 1D is harder to say, North has no idea,

if there exists a diamond fit.

And the possible auctions differ if NFB are in place or not.

 

Looking at the bidding at your table 2S should show fit, and deny 4 hearts, and

should drive to game, i.e. making nonforcing bids are no option

... for that matter I dont think 4C is nonforcing.

If 2S is inv.+ with fit, bypassing 3C showes add. values, accepting the game

invitation.

Openers duty is to limit his hand, otherwise you end up at the 4 level min opener vs.

inv. responder.

 

I guess South did not want to show add. values, otherwise I have no explanation for

his pass.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ggwhiz]

Our agreement is that 2♠ shows a limit raise or better in diamonds and denies 4 hearts (no negative double).

 

That makes the south hand worth only a 3♦ bid and after that 4♣ shows the better than limit (North would pass with only that), 100% game force. South should probably cue the heart Ace since they have already said they are only worth a partscore opposite a limit raise and gets to either a cold game or a 50-50 slam depending on whether you have switched to decaf or not.

 

When the 3♥ bid made here can be anything from a really good opener to this one, North is completely boxed in.

[kenberg]

I open the hand 1D, I have a partner who opens it 1C. He won't be changing his mind, nor will I.

 

 

I don't want to be in slam. It's worse than 50%. If his spade suit is shaggy he needs the heart K for his overcall, if his spade suit is not shaggy he is still almost 50% to have the heart king. If he has six decent but not spectacular spades and no heart king he might have bid 2S. At any rate, I do not want to be in 6m needing the heart finesse.

 

After 1m-(1s) I bid 2S regardless of whether m is C or D. It's true that partner (I assume) would open 1D on 4=4=3=2 but it is also true that he has at least some decent cards in the majors since I have most of the cards in the minors. If NT is right, he can bid it.

 

Now I switch to the S hand after

P 1m 1S 2S

P

 

My hand is not great but it is a better hand than when I started. We have a fit, my stiff spade is a serious plus. But what to do? I do not want to bid 3S. If partner bids 3NT I will not be confident that is right, and I think to bid 3S and then pull 3NT should be a definite slam try. My hand is not good enough for that. I am going to bid my other minor. So 3D if I opened 1C, 3C if I opened 1D. Even if I opened 1C, so that I am now bidding 3D, I don't think this shows a huge hand. But I could have simply rebid in the minor I opened. So I am showing more than a minimum, and that's what I have. [Added: Well the D suit in the S hand is shaggy, maybe if I opened 1C I would now bid 3H, as happened.]

 

Back to the N hand. Ok, maybe I, as North, am a little worried about controls, but partner did open the bidding, I have a pretty decent hand, we have a double fit, meaning a fit in one minor and a values fit in the other, this hand belongs in game. I think I just bid it. [if partner opened 1C and bid 3H over 2S I think I still bid 5C. Maybe it is even easier to do so. ]

 

Back to S: I pass partner's game bid.

 

Maybe not elegant, but it seems like a series of rational choices.

 

Added: Let's take the auction that they actually had, where S opened 1C.

 

P-1C-1S-2S

3H-P-?

 

 

At this point, S is known to have a non-minimal hand. Not necessarily a great hand.

The N hand has shown a limit raise or better, and the "better" is not yet known. That Diamond Ace in the N hand could have been the J, the bidding would have gone the same. So now 4C is: I am glad to hear of your non-minimum, but I have a minimum for my call. Do as you think best. So, after 3H, if N does not want to stop in 4C, he should bid anything except 4C. A 4D bid would commit them to 5C and invite 6, maybe the hand is good enough, I guess it could continue 4D-4S-5C and now I think S could decide that if what he has done so far is not enough for 6C then it is time to get out. Maybe.

[SteveMoe]

With a pinch of optimism:

1♦ - (1♠) - 2♠ - P

3♣ - (P) - 4♣ - (P)

4♥ - (P) - 4♠* - (P)

5N - (P) - 6♣ - AP

 

Notes:

2♠ is ♦ LR or better. Opener expected to show NT stopper if have one.

4♣ is both a game force and a second suit, strongly suggesting 9+ cards in the minors and an unbalanced hand.

4♠ is "last Train"

5N Pick a Slam

 

This slam seems no worse than a ♥ finesse. Yes, I am ignoring the worst possible minor suit break cases. Like I said, a pinch of optimism. Would expect 5♣+1 to be worth 60+%, no?

[kenberg]

With a pinch of optimism:

1♦ - (1♠) - 2♠ - P

3♣ - (P) - 4♣ - (P)

4♥ - (P) - 4♠* - (P)

5N - (P) - 6♣ - AP

 

Notes:

2♠ is ♦ LR or better. Opener expected to show NT stopper if have one.

4♣ is both a game force and a second suit, strongly suggesting 9+ cards in the minors and an unbalanced hand.

4♠ is "last Train"

5N Pick a Slam

 

This slam seems no worse than a ♥ finesse. Yes, I am ignoring the worst possible minor suit break cases. Like I said, a pinch of optimism. Would expect 5♣+1 to be worth 60+%, no?

 

I would expect 5C making 6 and 6C making 5 to both be below average. Usually if you get a close call wrong you get below average. I don't usually worry about the field, but maybe it matters here. If some pairs, as happened, are in 4C then you beat them them if you are in 5C making with or without the overtrick while if you are in 6C you beat them if you make 6, lost to them if you are down 1.

 

I certainly agree that the 4C bid is right, but maybe that's enough. If partner cannot bid 6 after that, perhaps let it be?

6 may make, or not. With the overcall, I think it is less than 50%. With any specific spade holding, possession of the heart king would not dissuade W from coming in, but with some holdings the lack of it might.

[billw55]

Interesting. I wonder if east will raise spades though, rendering most of this analysis moot.

[MrAce]

N cannot let bidding die before game with a 14 count opposite an opening bid.

 

If 4♣ isn't forcing, he has to bid 3♠ first or jump to 5♣ or bid 4♦.

 

How can any bid by N be nf when South started with 3♥?

[MrAce]

dbl post

[GrahamJson]

Why bid 2S when there is a perfectly natural 2C bid available (assuming a 1D opening).

 

I think I'd bid 1D (1S) 2C 3C 3D 3H 4C... Then maybe some cue bids before ending in 5C, 6 if feeling lucky.

 

If 2C would be NF then bid 3C and follow the above bidding, but one level higher.

 

I think that a 2S cue bid is best used for something like xxx Kxx AKQxx Kx.

[Cyberyeti]

How can any bid by N be nf when South started with 3♥?

 

It's entirely plausible to play 3♥ as showing a heart stop, looking for 3N but able to drop it in 4♣. Partly depends on how much is shown by 2♠, the sort of hand where you just have 9 or 10 tricks in either NT or clubs if you can stop the spades, but won't have 11 in clubs. Will usually be a very light opener with long clubs and a heart stop. The sort of hand where the two pointy suit aces and 4 clubs give you 9 tricks, xx, Axx, xx, AKxxxx or similar where 9 in notrumps may be easy but 11 in clubs is a long way away opposite a non GF 2♠.

[fourdad]

We had a thread a while back where which minor to open was discussed. At the time, I said it depends on whether you are strong enough to reverse.

This hand is an example of that and is why it should open 1D.

After the sequence....1D-1S-2S-P-3C-P-?, N now knows that partner has a minimum opener because he did NOT reverse.

 

N counts his pd as minimum (13) and values his hand as 17. Adds to game and under the "one who knows goes" tenet, N bids 5C.

 

If S has 15 he bids 6C. else pass.

 

Bippity boppity BOO!!

 

:rolleyes:

[kenberg]

We had a thread a while back where which minor to open was discussed. At the time, I said it depends on whether you are strong enough to reverse.

This hand is an example of that and is why it should open 1D.

After the sequence....1D-1S-2S-P-3C-P-?, N now knows that partner has a minimum opener because he did NOT reverse.

 

N counts his pd as minimum (13) and values his hand as 17. Adds to game and under the "one who knows goes" tenet, N bids 5C.

 

If S has 15 he bids 6C. else pass.

 

Bippity boppity BOO!!

 

:rolleyes:

 

A couple of things. With 4-4, the issue of reversing is not critical. If the auction is uncontested then opening 1C and rebidding 2D not only shows the strength for a reverse it also shows five clubs. Of course some do not play this but most do. For evidence I quote from the pinned primer on reverses on the I/A forum:

 

It is a fundamental principle of bridge (outside of certain non-standard methods) that one bids long suits before short(er) suits. Any reverse absolutely, without any room for exception whatsoever, promises more length in the first suit than the second.

 

Now, as the saying goes, mikeh puts on his pants one leg at a time just like the rest of us, but really this is not at all some whimsy of his. The simple truth is that if you bid 1C and then, after partner responds 1M in a non-contested auction, if you bid 2D most partners will expect you to have five clubs. This view will be supported by the expert community, by non-expert me, and by everyone I know.

 

I regard it as at least an unsettled matter as to whether, after 1C-(1S)-X-(P) whether 2D must still show five clubs. Partner made this negative double, you have to do something, so? Actually this is why I prefer to open 1D on, say, a 3=2=4=4 hand minimum hand. I hope the auction will go 1D-1M-1NT but if the opponents come in with a spade and partner makes a negative double I can rebid 2C and hopefully we land on our feet.

 

Now on the current hand with the club opening of resonse #3, after 1C-(1S)-2S-(P) the clear way to show a minimum is by bidding 3C. Since this is a nice simple passable bid, doing something else is not on a minimum. The hand here qualifies. We have a fit and a stiff, the hand has improved. So we encourage. Encouragement is not gf, it is just encouragement. So, 3H. It doesn't force to game and it doesn't show five clubs. It shows encouragement. After which 4C says "Thanks for the encouragement, I still have my limit raise but forget about the plus, so unless you can do this on your own, I am done". If this is what 4C means, and I think that it is, then doing something other than 4C is return encouragement. Now the problem is to stay out of 6. Since 6 may or may not be on, it is natural to expect this to be a less than obvious choice. In response 3, OP clearly acknowledges that he should have done something other than 4C, and I agree with this.

[Zelandakh]

We had a thread a while back where which minor to open was discussed. At the time, I said it depends on whether you are strong enough to reverse.

Shape tends to have something to do with reverses too. Do you still open 1♣ with reversing strength and 5♦4♣? 6♦4♣? And 1♦ with a weak 4♦5♣? 4♦6♣? Your idea is problematic because it does not appear to consider the general case. Now I am sure the hands can be re-jiggled enough to make the whole thing work but I would be surprised if it can be done without some artificiality. And as for bidding slam based on nothing other than counting points... :blink: :huh: :lol:

[fourdad]

Shape tends to have something to do with reverses too. Do you still open 1♣ with reversing strength and 5♦4♣? 6♦4♣? And 1♦ with a weak 4♦5♣? 4♦6♣? Your idea is problematic because it does not appear to consider the general case. Now I am sure the hands can be re-jiggled enough to make the whole thing work but I would be surprised if it can be done without some artificiality. And as for bidding slam based on nothing other than counting points... :blink: :huh: :lol:

 

Would absolutely NEVER misstate the shape by bidding the shorter suit first...EVER, but that is not on point with the hand in front of us, is it? I mean seriously, we can all come up with examples not relevant to the thread, can't we?

My suggestion is a direct and reasonable way to bid this hand WITH the interference as it happened, and supports why 1D over 1C is preferable here. It is absolutely relevant that how one will treat subsequent actions is reasoned out before making the first bid.

 

In this case, and I agree that the first bid suit would convey more length in a reverse, as someone else stated mentioned...it just may not ALWAYS be so.

 

This hand is not about reversing, it is about making sure you do not reverse!!

[kenberg]

Would absolutely NEVER misstate the shape by bidding the shorter suit first...EVER, but that is not on point with the hand in front of us, is it? I mean seriously, we can all come up with examples not relevant to the thread, can't we?

My suggestion is a direct and reasonable way to bid this hand WITH the interference as it happened, and supports why 1D over 1C is preferable here. It is absolutely relevant that how one will treat subsequent actions is reasoned out before making the first bid.

 

In this case, and I agree that the first bid suit would convey more length in a reverse, as someone else stated mentioned...it just may not ALWAYS be so.

 

This hand is not about reversing, it is about making sure you do not reverse!!

 

Well, you brought up the reverse. and in the context of 4-4 in the minors. I took you to be saying that with modest values you would open 1D, while with stronger values you would open 1C and reverse into diamonds. Maybe I/we misunderstood. But opening 1C and reversing into diamonds on a strong 4-4, is what I, and I believe Zel, are saying is non-standard. Possibly all three of us agree, electronic discussion are notoriously for ambiguity.

[fourdad]

Well, you brought up the reverse. and in the context of 4-4 in the minors. I took you to be saying that with modest values you would open 1D, while with stronger values you would open 1C and reverse into diamonds. Maybe I/we misunderstood. But opening 1C and reversing into diamonds on a strong 4-4, is what I, and I believe Zel, are saying is non-standard. Possibly all three of us agree, electronic discussion are notoriously for ambiguity.

 

I thought I was clear about AVOIDING the reverse. However, give me AK of C and KQ of diamonds in exchange for the honors shown in those suits and I would reverse it every time. There is no such thing as "100%" in any bidding system.

[kenberg]

I thought I was clear about AVOIDING the reverse. However, give me AK of C and KQ of hearts in exchange for the honors shown in those suits and I would reverse it every time. There is no such thing as "100%" in any bidding system.

 

Ok, I understood you correctly and that's what I was responding to. You would open it 1C, planning to reverse into 2D with a strong 4-4 such as you describe. Which of course you can do. I was saying that it is not the standard approach and I was citing some evidence for this.

 

Summary: Holding a strong 3=2=4=4, you open 1C and reverse into diamonds. I open 1D and rebid 2NT (assuming the hand is too strong to open 1NT). Where I have the most problem is with 1=4=4=4 big hands. After 1D-1S I have a choice of unpleasant bids. Maybe I can survive if I rebid 2C, maybe not. Bidding a gf 3C seems too much. But I also am stuck if I open 1C. With specifically this shape I, with discussion, like to go against the advice of mikeh. I think 1D-1S-2H should promise either five diamonds or exactly this 1=4=4=4 shape. This may not be the thread for it but if the discussion of the OP hand has run its course I would be happy to see references to how to deal with this shape, say holding an 18 count.

[costi_m25]

With 1444 or 4441(shortage in black suit)ussualy open 1!d

Auction from my point of view might be:

1!d ....1!s.....2!s=invite or better with diamonds...pass

3!c.....pass....4!c..................................pass

4!h.....pass....4NT..................................pass

5!h.....pass....6!d..................................pass

pass....pass

 

4!h=shows 1345 or 1444

4NT=RKCB for !ds

5!h=2KC-!dsQ

[costi_m25]

Ussualy with 1444 or 4441(shortage in balck suit) open 1♦

Auction might be:

 

1♦...1♠....2♠.....pass

3♣......pass.........4♣......pass

4♥.....pass.........4NT...........pass

5♥.....pass.........6♦

[kenberg]

I wasn't being clear, sorry. If I am 1=4=4=4 and it begins 1♦-(1♠)-2♠ I put the opponents on my X-mas list for helping clarify matters.

 

I was leaving the OP question as pretty much settles and thinking of 1♦-P-1♠-P. Suppose I am 1=4=4=4 with an 18 count. If I bid 2NT partner is apt to play me for at least two spades, if I bid 2♥ partner will play me for five diamonds, if I bid 2♣ partner might pass, perhaps ok perhaps not. and 3♣ seems optimistic, I regard it as a gf with no exit. Maybe 2NT is the least of evils. Partner once did this to me, I went on to 6♠ on my AKQxxx, they broke 3-3.

 

But as mentioned, this is way off the OP topic so I should probably pursue this on a different thread.

[Winstonm]

1D-1S-2C-P

3S-P-4D-P

4H-P-4N*-P

5C-P-6D-P

P-P

 

*general slam try, values left unbid