Standards for overcalls the the 2 level with a 5 card Minor

[Elyk25]

Standards for Overcalls at the 2 level with a long minor (5+ cards)

 

Hey all,

 

How often should a 5 card minor suit be overcalled, and of what characteristics should that sort of hand have?

 

The most bare-bones standard I'm aware of for this situation is the overcaller must have at let 5+ in the minor and 10+ for a two level bid. But I feel like there are more subtleties to the purpose of overcalling a minor-- especially with minimum values.

 

One thing is, minors are easily bid over and with out the majority of the points you're unlikely to find a part-score over the opening bidder, nor a game unless you are very distributional and have the unlikely support of a strong hand from your partner (with support for your suit over course).

 

What situations and factors affect how you overcall 5 card suits-- consider factors like vulnerablility, shortness in desired suits extra length (a 6th card), quality of honors (i.e. is this a suit you really want you're partner to lead to you?)

 

When is it good to bid the 5 card suit, and when is it more importantly best to stay quiet.

 

Thanks everyone for your response!

[WesleyC]

Although there are a lot of factors involved, my one line summary would be that most experienced players tend to be conservative when over-calling a minor at the 2 level or above. They would rather double for take-out, overcall 1NT or pass.

 

Some of the main factors are:

 

1. Suit quality and length - Overcalling a weak 5c suit should be an absolute last resort. With a good 7 card suit, you should stretch to get involved even with sub-minimum values.

2. Number of cards in the opponents suit. With shortness and no support for the unbid major(s) take an optimistic view. With length/strength usually pass, unless you are strong enough for 1NT. It's usually safer to overcall an off-shape 1NT than 2 of a minor.

3. Vulnerability. You can afford to be more aggressive at favourable with a shapely hand, but should be extra careful when un-favourable.

4. How destructive your overcall is. It's more advantageous to bid 2C over 1D (taking away the 1 level and making it tougher for the opps to find a major fit) than bidding 2C over 1S (which doesn't take away much room at all).

[mcphee]

First of all you have 2 main forms of scoring which will make a considerable difference when electing to over-call. Keep in mind that partner should be aggressive in attempts to reach game at imps so a 5 card minor does not have much appeal in the 10 hcp range. In a pairs game AK, AQ 5th have a lot of lead appeal and pairs are not quick to dble a two level over-call and obstruction has its value.

[P_Marlowe]

mcphee already mentioned the main 2 reasons to get, but there is a 3rd, fight for the partial.

If you have opening values and a good 5 card suit, than getting in to fight for the partial is also important.

If you fight for the partial you will quite often push them to a level, where they dont make any more, aka the LoTT,

or buy the contract at the 3 level, so with a good 5 card suit, and 10+ go in.

 

To decide upon the suit quality, you could use the suit quality test, shade, if you got more than a min, and if

you are not 5332.

http://www.ronklingerbridge.com/blog/2331/bridge-game-tips-using-suit-quality-test

 

It is best to be quite, if they go to game. It was brilliant, if you were able to find a good sacrifice against

there 4M game, or pushed them one level higher.

Unfortunately: You will only really know, after seeing all 4 hands.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I prefer to get in, but ...

[rmnka447]

Generally, you have to have a reasonably good holding in your suit to overcall at the 2 level. Something like KQ10xx, AK10xx, etc. are fine but not Axxxx, K10xxx and the like. Also, you ought to have a good 10-11 and up. Leave the 6 count overcalls for the 1 level.

[eagles123]

personally I consider this a very informative topic regarding 5 card minor overcalls

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/71735-extra-values/

[Charlie Yu]

Depends on opponent's level. If they are weak toucan open lighter and get away with it

[gordontd]

It's more advantageous to bid 2C over 1D (taking away the 1 level and making it tougher for the opps to find a major fit) than bidding 2C over 1S (which doesn't take away much room at all).

I seem to remember this being a tip from Sabine Auken - to stretch to overall 2m over a 1om opener.

[GrahamJson]

Current expert practice is to require a six card suit for a two level overcall, although I guess a very good five carder would be ok in some cases.

[helene_t]

Current expert practice is to require a six card suit for a two level overcall, although I guess a very good five carder would be ok in some cases.

I think this is only slightly exagerated, but Ulf Nilsson has an interesting alternative view: http://viewsfromthebridgetable.blogspot.co.uk/

[SteveMoe]

Over 1♦, 2♣ can be sufficiently disruptive that it's worth doing with 5 good ♣ cards and 8-10 HCP at fav vul only. Over 1M this is less useful (Double can show the other major clearly).

 

In direct seat (partner yet to bid) I prefer 6+ cards and 11+ HCP. If I have only 5 I will have an opening had with a good side 4-card suit (preferably a major). However if we play Equal Level Conversion, the need for overcalling on 5 cards is diminished (for♦).

 

As others point out, intervening on a weak suit or a 5-card suit in a weak hand can lead to major penalties and bad scores.

 

On 5332 shapes with 10+ HCP I strongly prefer a takeout double if they bid my doubleton. 1NT is good if I am near range.

If my minor is AKQxx I can show what I really hold.

 

2m is better "full valued" because opponents can outbid us at level. The OC then marks assets for counting declarers. Ouch. If I have 6+ cards, then LoTT decisions are much clearer in competitive auctions.

[nekthen]

I was playing in an individual at the club recently. I had xxx-xx-AKxxx-Qxx green v red and RHO opened 1H. I decided to overcall 2D this was passed around to RHO who bid 2S which got raised to 4S and made. If I had passed, LHO would still have passed with Qxxx-xx-xxx-Qxxx.

 

I dont know what this tells us except to be wary of weak overcalls!

[ARV34]

Personally, I have a very simple standard concerning overcalling a 5-card minor at level 2 : I will not partner that person again if the thing happens more that a couple times a year.

 

6+ cards and (near-)opening values are required. If partner has already passed it's ok to overcall 2C on something like AJ10xxx and 9 HCP. Occasionally, I can have sympathy for a partner overcalling 2C over a 1S opening with S x H Q x x D A Q x x C A Q 10 9 8 (14 HCP, singleton in opening suit, semi-solid 5-card clubs). (That's the twice-a-year situation). BTW that's my standard for overcalling 2H over a 1S opening with a 5-card-only H suit.

 

The reason I'm so strict is that, as an advancer to 2-of-a-Minor overcalls, I love to bid 3NT, counting on partner's 6-card suit, if I have myself something like Hx(x) in the suit, 11 HCP and a stopper in opener's suit.

 

Second reason is that I don't need to get concerned when the auction goes (1S) - 2C - (X) - p; (p). This is a really concerning situation for 5-card overcallers, especially those who do it on 8 HCP and out ...

[P_Marlowe]

I was playing in an individual at the club recently. I had xxx-xx-AKxxx-Qxx green v red and RHO opened 1H. I decided to overcall 2D this was passed around to RHO who bid 2S which got raised to 4S and made. If I had passed, LHO would still have passed with Qxxx-xx-xxx-Qxxx.

 

I dont know what this tells us except to be wary of weak overcalls!

Or, that your partner forgot to raise with a fit.

Opener may or may nor have bid 3S anyway, but it gets a lot tougher committing oneself

to the 4 level.

 

In general: You may to decide to live by the sword, than you need to understand, that

you may die by the sword.

[helene_t]

Personally, I have a very simple standard concerning overcalling a 5-card minor at level 2 : I will not partner that person again if the thing happens more that a couple times a year.

I don't think you should blame partner for sometimes having cards for which there is no ideal call.

 

(1♠)-?

xxx-KJxxx-AKxx-A

2♥ for me at any vulnerability. So it doesn't even promise a good suit, although something as poor as KJxxx will be rare.

[PhilG007]

Standards for Overcalls at the 2 level with a long minor (5+ cards)

 

Hey all,

 

How often should a 5 card minor suit be overcalled, and of what characteristics should that sort of hand have?

 

The most bare-bones standard I'm aware of for this situation is the overcaller must have at let 5+ in the minor and 10+ for a two level bid. But I feel like there are more subtleties to the purpose of overcalling a minor-- especially with minimum values.

 

One thing is, minors are easily bid over and with out the majority of the points you're unlikely to find a part-score over the opening bidder, nor a game unless you are very distributional and have the unlikely support of a strong hand from your partner (with support for your suit over course).

 

What situations and factors affect how you overcall 5 card suits-- consider factors like vulnerablility, shortness in desired suits extra length (a 6th card), quality of honors (i.e. is this a suit you really want you're partner to lead to you?)

 

When is it good to bid the 5 card suit, and when is it more importantly best to stay quiet.

 

Thanks everyone for your response!

 

When assessing whether a suit is good enough to overcall,it's important not to forget the intermediate cards.

10's and 9's can take tricks,3's and 2's don't. As an example look at these two suits :-

 

A K1098xxx B Kxxxxxx

Suit A is quite a decent holding and may easily take more than 1 trick whereas suit B is a

King heading a load of rubbish. So when evaluating suit quality,always include the middle cards.

[Tramticket]

There was an interesting comment from Alan Mould, adjudicating the bidding competition in this month's Bridge Magazine: "This may be a North America–European divide question. Europe has always treated a two level overcall with less reverence that North America." The American panellist seemed to be of the opinion that:

AQ5

1094

5

AQ10765

 

was a minimum overcall of one diamond. Some of the European panellists seemed to think that they had a bit to spare for the bid (and were worth a second bid!).

 

I guess that it partly depends on your objective. Are you trying to be constructive? (see the "The reason I'm so strict is that, as an advancer to 2-of-a-Minor overcalls, I love to bid 3NT, counting on partner's 6-card suit" comment from ARV34 above). Or are you trying to make a nuisance of yourself? I tend to want to push opponents around a bit.