Suggestion in this 2/1 sequences

[Chamaco]

Hi all,

last saturday I had an awkward bidding sequence and I would like to work out a better solution.

 

Team game, all vuln.

 

Pard opened a Precision 1H (max 15 hcp) and I held

 

♠AQJ♥Qx♦ATxxx♣ATx

 

Ou agreements for 2/1 seqences are:

 

1) 2NT is Jacoby 2NT

2) 2/1 guarantees a good 5+ card suit, GF

3) 2C is GF , EITHER with 5+ clubs OR balanced.

 

For some reason, I felt to consider this a balanced hand, and instead f bidding 2D I bid 2C.

This turned out badly as we'll see later.

 

After

1H:2C, our followup is:

- 2D = relay (asks whether 2C is balanced OR with clubs; typically opener has a minimum, featureless or with 6+ hearts)

- 2H = artificial raise of clubs if responder has clubs

- 2S/3m = 55+, distributional reverse (5-5.5 losers)

- 2NT = natural, 5332 , all suit stopped

- 3H = distributional reverse, one suiter

 

My pard bid 2D.

 

So after

1M:2C

2D

 

- any suit rebid shows a hand with 5+ clubs and the (eventual) second suit

- NT bids show the balanced GF:

....- 2NT = 12-14 OR 18+

....- 3NT = 15-17

 

So I bid 3NT.

 

 

Now, after

1M:2C

2D:3NT

4D:?

 

I was in trouble.

I wanted to ask keycards.

We agreed to use Kickback.

However, when the kickback suit is ambiguous (has been bid by pard), we use the next unbid suit as kickback.

So I bid 4S, "thinking " it was for diamonds.

But my pard did not really know whether it was for D or H.

 

SO HERE IS THE FIRST QUESTION:

NOW, IN THIS MOMENT, HOW CAN I DIFFERENTIATE RKCB SPECIFICALLY FOR H VS RKCB SPECIFICALLY FOR DIAMONDS ?

(I know I wd not be in such trouble had I responded 2D instead of 2C, but that's life)

 

In any case, bidding went:

 

1M:2C

2D:3NT

4D:4S

6H:7D

 

Pard had:

 

♠x♥AKJTxx♦QJTx♣Kx

 

And DK was onside, so all was well.

But still we need better agreements...

 

Comments ?

I mean, the fact that 2D was better became obvious: I'd rather have comments on how to discriminate keycards in one suit vs the other in the 4 level NON AGREEMENT sequence.

 

Ty a lot !

[pclayton]

Maybe over 4♦, 6♦ is more practical. I wouldn't worry too much after a kickback agreement, especially after a manufactured sequence like this. Pard is is marked with a good 6-4 / 5+/ 5+ and a max. Not sure I like an automatic relay over 2♣ anyway; you are arbitraily making responder captain.

 

4♦ can't be kickback anyway; you've never shown clubs. 4♦ and 4♥ should be natural. I suppose 4♠ is kickback for hearts, 4N is a signoff. With ♦'s, you are on your own.

[Chamaco]

Not sure I like an automatic relay over 2♣ anyway; you are arbitraily making responder captain.

 

Remember, we are applying 2/1 sequences to Precision opener, so making responder captain vs a limited opening may be not (too) bad, I guess ? :)

 

On the other hand, the 2D rebid saves a lot of bidding space.

In this case this bidding space was "eaten" by the 3NT jump by responder: perhaps I'd rather rethink the idea that a 15-17 (or 16-18) responder should jump to 3NT.

It does help when responder has an 18+ and starts low, so if he rebids over a signoff he's got extras.

But it worked badly here.

 

4♦ can't be kickback anyway;

 

I know, my worry was not how to interpret 4D.

My worry was how to ask keycards in diamonds to look for aces AND the D King.

 

In another hand I might be more interested in the H keycards.

 

So, apart from this specific hand, I'd like to have 2 different RKCB ask for one or the other suit.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi Chamaco,

 

I dont play precision, so take the following

comment with a grain of salt.

 

Your 2C response to the 1H opener is

probably sensible, because the hand

looks more like 15-17 NT opener, than

like a hand with

 

My impression is, that your aggreements

make opener the captain, why?

With your responses, you try to describe

responders hand, which could be anything,

on the other hand opener, already is limited

in HCP and shape, assuming you are also

playing 2-suited openers.

 

One possible change: drop the 2D relay,

let opener describe his hand.

A new suit shows 4+, rebidding the mayor 6+,

rebidding 2 NT a bal. 5-3-3-2 shape, limiting the

HCP range further.

 

Over 2 NT you can still bid 3C to show a hand

with 5+ clubs ...

 

Over 2 NT just sign off in 3 NT or bid 4 NT

quantitaive.

 

Either drop the artificial

Opener already

[whereagles]

I don't know how you could have done better. But the one thing I know is I don't like

 

1H 2C

2D

 

as asking responder what he has. In precision, the good strategy is either opener says what he has, or responder shows a specific hand, within very concrete bounds. In this case the 2D relay caused your side self-preemption after which neither opener nor responder knew where they stood or who was in charge.

 

You could still have saved the boat by bidding a straight 6D. But I suppose flyers are not what you want to save the system :)

[Chamaco]

I don't know how you could have done better. But the one thing I know is I don't like

 

1H 2C

2D

 

as asking responder what he has. In precision, the good strategy is either opener says what he has, or responder shows a specific hand, within very concrete bounds. In this case the 2D relay caused your side self-preemption after which neither opener nor responder knew where they stood or who was in charge.

 

You could still have saved the boat by bidding a straight 6D. But I suppose flyers are not what you want to save the system :)

Alright I know there are pros and cons in the 2D relay.

 

I will consider the comments on this, I am sure that I have somethink to rethink.

 

However my main question is the following:

once at the 4 level in a non agreement sequence and opener has shown a 2-suiter, how to ask RKCB for one suit or the other ?

 

Thanks ! :)

[whereagles]

However my main question is the following:

once at the 4 level in a non agreement sequence and opener has shown a 2-suiter, how to ask RKCB for one suit or the other ?

Well, I see no simple solution. If you're at the 4 level and have not yet agreed on a suit, then I guess you might be in trouble. Especially since 4NT might be useful as a sign-off...

 

In your case,

 

1H 2C

2D 3NT

4D ...?

 

4H and 5D are preferences.

 

4S and 5C should be some sort of cue-bid with diamond fit(with hearts you would have supported the 2nd round, instead of bidding 3NT).

 

4NT must be left as a natural misfit warning (say a 3235 or similar).

 

So yeah.. I guess you can't ask for aces in hearts..

[Chamaco]

4S and 5C should be some sort of cue-bid with diamond fit(with hearts you would have supported the 2nd round, instead of bidding 3NT).

I think 4S should be surely RKCB for something.

 

So here is my (elementary) thought:

 

solution 1)

4S = 6 keycards RKCB for BOTH suits (in this case, both red kings are keycards)

steps are 03 - 14 - 25+1Q - 25 +0/2Q

 

solution 2)

4S = since it's the lowest step, it is RKCB for the lowest suit (diamonds)

4NT = RKCB for highest suit (hearts)

[P_Marlowe]

However my main question is the following:

once at the 4 level in a non agreement sequence and opener has shown a 2-suiter, how to ask RKCB for one suit or the other ?

 

Thanks !  :)

Hi,

 

first of all try to minimize theese sequences were the

suit is not aggreed, simply said :) , but in detail

complicate :) .

 

But the given Seq. is not a good example for

you, because in the given Seq. RKCB should

have been for Diamonds.

You had a forcing raise for the mayor available,

after all you could have bid 2 NT over 1H, unless

you req. 4 card support. But even then, you

could have bid 4H over 4D.

 

Since you would have completed the description

of your hand, 15-17 bal., 3 card support for the

mayor.

 

Second have a default agreement: In non fit agreement

situations - RKCB is for the last suit bid naturally by the

partnership.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[pclayton]

4S and 5C should be some sort of cue-bid with diamond fit(with hearts you would have supported the 2nd round, instead of bidding 3NT).

I think 4S should be surely RKCB for something.

 

So here is my (elementary) thought:

 

solution 1)

4S = 6 keycards RKCB for BOTH suits (in this case, both red kings are keycards)

steps are 03 - 14 - 25+1Q - 25 +0/2Q

 

solution 2)

4S = since it's the lowest step, it is RKCB for the lowest suit (diamonds)

4NT = RKCB for highest suit (hearts)

Yes Mauro I like your 4♠ agreement as six-ace. Logically, opener has 10 cards in the reds, so this makes sense opposite a balanced hand with an implied fit.

[david_c]

solution 2)

4S = since it's the lowest step, it is RKCB for the lowest suit (diamonds)

4NT = RKCB for highest suit (hearts)

4NT sounds natural to me. But certainly 4♠ as RKCB for diamonds makes better sense than playing it as RKCB for hearts.

 

Nice to see someone else taking up this style of 2♣ response; I've been playing it for a little while now and I'm convinced that it's the best thing you can do for your bidding system.

 

There's no real problem with the 2♦ relay: you're always going to have to use 2♦ as some sort of catchall bid here - though calling it a relay is probably a bad idea, if only because it sounds wrong to the captaincy freaks. What is a problem is forcing responder to rebid in no-trumps with a balanced hand - why not 2♥, the cheapest bid for the most frequent hand type?

 

Actually, I do think the system forces opener to bid 2♦ a little too often: you could do with taking one more hand type out, something like

2♦ - denies 4 cards in the other major

2♥ - 4 cards in the other major

2♠ - clubs

[whereagles]

If you're ok with giving up cuebidding, you can always use 4S as RKCB for the lowest suit and 5C as RKCB for the highest suit. The rule would be:

 

"IF bidding is at the 4-level and

 

1. Opener has shown 2 suits

2. Resp has shown none, neither did he give preference,

 

THEN..

 

lowest unbid suit = RKCB for opener's lower ranking suit

highest unbid suit = RKCB for opener's higher ranking suit."

 

You could also use 4NT as 6 ace blackwood, but I think you should have SOME bid to sign-off on a misfit case, which is not that unusual. Example (not playing precision):

 

1S 3NT

4C ..?

 

4D = RKCB for clubs

4H = RKCB for spades

4/5NT = misfit without/with extras

4S/5C = preference

 

NOTE: I really doubt you'll ever need RKCB for opener's first suit ONLY, so I guess you could make that RKCB the 6 ace one and keep 4NT as nat.

[awm]

Distinguishing opener's six-card major can be extremely important. In fact I think this is one of the main advantages of a 2/1 game forcing structure. So I don't really like the fact that opener has to bid 2♦ relay holding six good hearts. Assuming you don't open 1♥ with 5-5 majors, perhaps better would be:

 

2♦ = relay, most minimums, balanced hands without desire to play 3NT, or 5-4 type shapes

2♥ = a reasonable 6+ card heart suit

2♠ = 4+ clubs, good hand for club slam if partner actually has clubs

2NT = balanced hand that wants to declare NT

3♣/♦ = at least 5-5 and a good hand

3♥ = 7+ hearts with at most one loser opposite a void; setting trumps

 

In the auction given, I think responder's sequence of 2♣ followed by 3NT must deny holding 3 card hearts. Opener's continuation to 4♦ shows a maximum (slam interest) with a diamond suit. So I don't think there's all that much chance you want to look for slam in hearts at this point -- opener has never shown six hearts as far as I can tell (although on this hand he happens to have them -- really I think six good hearts should've been shown initially). With this in mind, I don't think there needs to be a way to look for slam in hearts. So I'd suggest:

 

4♥ = probably Hx in hearts, no fit for diamonds, not forcing (but partner can bid on)

4♠ = keycard in diamonds; I don't think you need keycard in hearts since no fit found

4NT = suggest to play in notrump, probably xx hearts and less than 4 diams.

 

Auctions where there are two potential suits to play in are annoying and I don't have a good general solution, except to say that by this point in the auction a fit for one of the suits should have been implicitly denied (here I think it has been, in hearts).

[Chamaco]

2♦ = relay, most minimums, balanced hands without desire to play 3NT, or 5-4 type shapes

2♥ = a reasonable 6+ card heart suit

2♠ = 4+ clubs, good hand for club slam if partner actually has clubs

2NT = balanced hand that wants to declare NT

3♣/♦ = at least 5-5 and a good hand

3♥ = 7+ hearts with at most one loser opposite a void; setting trumps

 

Specifically for the 1H opener this sounds an improvement.

However, it would force my pard to memorize 2 different sequences fo 1H and 1S openers.

The way we play she only needs to remember "2D = waiting, 2M rebid = club raise".

Less efficient, but less prone to memory failure.

 

 

Distinguishing opener's six-card major can be extremely important.

Well, in Mike Lawrence's Style (as opposed to Hardy's), rebidding the major does not guarantee nor denies a 6 bagger.

 

According to ML,

 

1M:2m

2M can be just a "waiting bid".

 

This is the meaning of the 2D bid: a "tempo bid" saving space.

Dvid_c got it right: it is not meant to be a relay starting an asking sequence, just a space saving bid.

 

All opener's rebids past 2M are natural (either single suiter, or 55+) "distributional reverses" (5-5.5 losers).

 

2NT rebid by opener is natural, but -EXTREMELY IMPORTANT - ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEES ALL SIDE SUITS STOPPED.

A 5332 with one or more side suits unstopped will never rebid 2NT (This is Mike Lawrence style).

An alternative use of 2NT is for 64 hands and distributional reverse(3C then asks second suit), to discriminate from revrse single suiters and reverse 55+ hands;

with a bal 5332 one could then simply use the waiting bid without too much loss.

 

A raise of responder's minor guarantees a non minimum hand (at most 6-6.5 losers) and Hxx or xxxx support.

A raise of responder's major only shows xxx support, even with a crappy hand.

 

All hands that do not qualify for such rebids will have to use a waiting bid, which will be the major rebid OR (in case of responder's 2C), the 2D waiting bid.

 

 

Bottomline: one of the major 2/1 styles gives up the bid to show 6+ in the major, so, if it is wrong, it cannot be *that* wrong :-)