How do you value this ?

[Cyberyeti]

[hv=pc=n&e=st97ha95da862c962&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1c(2%2B)1sd2c2h3d(Long%20suit%20try)4h]133|200[/hv]

 

No support redoubles being played.

 

How do you value your hand ? and what do you do ?

 

Edit: matchpoints

[Mbodell]

I bid 4 spades. Maybe it makes, maybe it's a sac, maybe opps bid 5.

[lycier]

I have told my stroy, so I would bid pass, let partner choose finally.

[ahydra]

I would have bid a (possibly wimpish, yes, but I have 10 losers and no shape) 2S rather than 2C.

 

I worry a bit about bidding 4S here in case 4H and 4S are both off. Opps are likely in a 4-4 fit so we have a heart loser which we can't get rid of. I think I'd pass - on most hands where 4S makes, partner would likely have bid it himself.

 

ahydra

[wank]

2 clubs was rather sporting, but now partner's bid diamonds it seems like a double fit so you've got to bid on.

[Cyberyeti]

I would have bid a (possibly wimpish, yes, but I have 10 losers and no shape) 2S rather than 2C.

 

If you'd bid 2♠ (I didn't overcomplicate in the OP, we actually have 1N available between 2♣ and 2♠ which is the right bid but pard forgot), and still got the try, then 4♠ is clear.

 

I worry a bit about bidding 4S here in case 4H and 4S are both off. Opps are likely in a 4-4 fit so we have a heart loser which we can't get rid of. I think I'd pass - on most hands where 4S makes, partner would likely have bid it himself.

 

ahydra

 

I think most of the time, opener has 4♥ and doubler has 5 here. Opps appear very shy on values.

[WesleyC]

I think the 2C cue-raise is already a pretty significant overbid so i'm going to pass and leave partner to make the final decision. Maybe my opinion is skewed by the fact that my partners will usually prefer to blast game rather than inviting, especially at these colours.

 

Regarding your methods, I strongly believe a wide ranging 2♠ raise after an overall is the way to go. Taking up an entire level of bidding space is incredibly valuable on what will usually be a partscore deal.

 

Taking away the 2-level against opponents who haven't even found a fit is far more important than precisely defining whether advancer has a 5 count or a 9 count. Giving away the location of the high cards might even end up helping declarer in the play!

[rmnka447]

Pass.

 

2 ♣ is too much of an overbid for me on this hand. If we get a bad result because of it, I apologize to partner and take the blame.

 

That said, I've got to wonder how we'll make 4 ♠ when partner still has to make a game try opposite something like a limit raise plus hand. I do have 2 QTs, but chances for a short trump hand ruff seem remote limiting potential trick taking in ♠. I'm passing now. If partner has enough to bid 4 ♠ anyhow, my hand won't be a complete disappointment. If not, we should have some prospects for defeating 4 ♥. Partner need only produce 1 ♠ trick and a well placed card in a side suit to beat it.

 

Also, I'd hate to be in 4 ♠x off 1 when others are making a ♥ or ♠ part score.

[gszes]

Assuming that 2c bid is a limit raise+ in spades (was not explained but it seemed normal)

 

hmmm that 2c bid seems sort of steroidish* but having gotten this far p knows our hand cannot be much better than what we are holding and they have asked us to go to game with a pretty fair hand and decent help in diamonds. If Axxx does not qualify p is looking for miracles.

 

4s

 

A case can be made for 5d since this hand looks very much like one that will have a lot of distribution (ie bad spade split) and we might lose control BUT that is all speculation

and playing 1 level lower might be the only way to succeed. If the opps bid 5c I will be much happier bidding 5d then since I am willing to sac (or even make) there.

 

* as an unpassed hand would you bid the same way with an extra K? If so your limit raise + 2c bid range might be too large and you might be better off bidding 2s with your example hand (just a thought).

[Cyberyeti]

Assuming that 2c bid is a limit raise+ in spades (was not explained but it seemed normal)

 

hmmm that 2c bid seems sort of steroidish* but having gotten this far p knows our hand cannot be much better than what we are holding and they have asked us to go to game with a pretty fair hand and decent help in diamonds. If Axxx does not qualify p is looking for miracles.

 

4s

 

A case can be made for 5d since this hand looks very much like one that will have a lot of distribution (ie bad spade split) and we might lose control BUT that is all speculation

and playing 1 level lower might be the only way to succeed. If the opps bid 5c I will be much happier bidding 5d then since I am willing to sac (or even make) there.

 

* as an unpassed hand would you bid the same way with an extra K? If so your limit raise + 2c bid range might be too large and you might be better off bidding 2s with your example hand (just a thought).

 

2♣ was limit raise, but our overcalls are very sound so not quite as bananas as it looks.

[mikestar13]

Opposite an opening bid, East's hand doesn't merit a limit raise. It is a clear acceptance if partner invites after a wide-range 2♠. I assume that even a very sound one level overcall doesn't have a minimum higher that an opening bid, so 2♣ is a clear and egregious overbid if it shows a limit raise, so pass now. If 2♣ is more like good constructive to limit raise, the hand is minimum for the action, so pass now. Your hand is is too flat to consider a two way shot with 4♠--4333 shape suggests the trick total will be low.

[Cyberyeti]

Opposite an opening bid, East's hand doesn't merit a limit raise. It is a clear acceptance if partner invites after a wide-range 2♠. I assume that even a very sound one level overcall doesn't have a minimum higher that an opening bid, so 2♣ is a clear and egregious overbid if it shows a limit raise, so pass now. If 2♣ is more like good constructive to limit raise, the hand is minimum for the action, so pass now. Your hand is is too flat to consider a two way shot with 4♠--4333 shape suggests the trick total will be low.

 

Actually we do open some hands we don't overcall, but not 1♠ over 1♣ (if it was 1♦ over 1♣ then definitely the overcall requires more).

 

We have lots of raises, the 2♣ bid is sort of a 3 card limit raise, but we tend to shade it a bit, Axx, xx, Axxx, xxxx would just about fit the bill, but the flat shape with the A in a suit probably held by the opps is too rich for me.

[Cyberyeti]

Partner's hand was:

 

AQ86x, x, K10xxx, Kx

 

The lie of the cards was such that even with spades 4-1, both honours were onside, club ace onside and diamonds 2-2 so you could make 12 tricks in spades.

 

Partner doubled 4♥, and thinking the last thing he would hold was diamonds in this auction, I then got the defence wrong so we conceded -790. I played ♠Ax trying to punch dummy and both dummy's diamonds went away on declarer's KJ. Passing out 4♥ dooms you to a bad score, you have to X and defend correctly or bid 4♠ to get a good one.

[WesleyC]

I think your partner's judgement is off.

 

Introducing diamonds on a minimum game-force feels misguided. Bidding 4S directly gets you to the right spot, makes the opponents guess and conceals the nature of your hand.

 

Once he does bid 3D, and the opponents jumps to 4H, if you held short diamonds or heart values on this auction, surely you would double 4H?

 

When you don't double 4H, he needs to recognize that his hand is offensively oriented and bid 4S.

[fourdad]

I would have bid 2S rather than 2C and then would not have this problem.

[rhm]

I think your partner's judgement is off.

 

Introducing diamonds on a minimum game-force feels misguided. Bidding 4S directly gets you to the right spot, makes the opponents guess and conceals the nature of your hand.

 

Once he does bid 3D, and the opponents jumps to 4H, if you held short diamonds or heart values on this auction, surely you would double 4H?

 

When you don't double 4H, he needs to recognize that his hand is offensively oriented and bid 4S.

If 2♣ was a limit raise I agree that overcaller had more than enough for game.

You overbid and overcaller seroiously underbid.

I can understand 3♦, however, as a slam try or in preparation of what to do over an eventual 5-level bid by opponents, but not as a game invitation.

 

From the perspective of the 2♣ bidder he should clearly double 4♥.

If overcaller can only invite game with 3♦ you clearly have not enough to accept after having shown a limit raise. Having so little for your limit raise you can not pass the decision to partner.

Overcaller should bid 4♠ regardless, confirming that his 3♦ was not a game-try.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

OK, I didn't expect the comments I'm getting, maybe "limit raise" was overstating what this bid means for us, it's too good to bid 2, so 9 points, 3 spades.

 

Qxx, Kxx, xxx, AQxx would be a more than decent hand for the limit raise and 2♠ could easily be the limit.

 

Partner will not have 4♠ for this raise (2N is limit+ with 4), without help in the diamond suit 4♠ is very unlikely to make.

 

Once he does bid 3D, and the opponents jumps to 4H, if you held short diamonds or heart values on this auction, surely you would double 4H?

 

He did double 4♥ which is why I didn't bid 4♠.

[rhm]

Qxx, Kxx, xxx, AQxx would be a more than decent hand for the limit raise and 2♠ could easily be the limit.

 

Partner will not have 4♠ for this raise (2N is limit+ with 4), without help in the diamond suit 4♠ is very unlikely to make.

Personally I do not like raising partner immediately with 4333, particularly with a good holding in opponents bid suit. It is one area where I depart from standard bidding.

In essence this is a distribution with a low ODR and 4333 usually disappoints in a trump contract.

I am not claiming that notrumps always plays better, but it sometimes does, particularly single dummy. Raising a major suit tends to lock you in this strain..

 

The actual suggestion is not possible since overcaller has the spade queen.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

Personally I do not like raising partner immediately with 4333, particularly with a good holding in opponents bid suit. It is one area where I depart from standard bidding.

In essence this is a distribution with a low ODR and 4333 usually disappoints in a trump contract.

Indeed it is not a bad rule to deduct a trump in a competitive auction when holding 4333 shape and bid accordingly. This is not something I would consider hugely controversial against "standard bidding".

[rhm]

Indeed it is not a bad rule to deduct a trump in a competitive auction when holding 4333 shape and bid accordingly. This is not something I would consider hugely controversial against "standard bidding".

Fine if it is not

There are numerous examples on BBO and other forums where a 5 card major got raised immediately with 4333.

I do not recollect a single instance where this action has been seriously questioned.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

Personally I do not like raising partner immediately with 4333, particularly with a good holding in opponents bid suit. It is one area where I depart from standard bidding.

In essence this is a distribution with a low ODR and 4333 usually disappoints in a trump contract.

I am not claiming that notrumps always plays better, but it sometimes does, particularly single dummy. Raising a major suit tends to lock you in this strain..

 

The actual suggestion is not possible since overcaller has the spade queen.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

xxx would be enough but barely, add J♣. I don't treat clubs as opps suit, the opening bid was very likely to be 11-13 bal as they were playing a 14-16 NT (and indeed was).

[Manastorm]

I am in the 2♠ camp. Two aces are great, but are also a defensive resource. I do not want to encourage 4♠, if partner can't invite by himself. I considered

passing 4♥, but it doesn't feel right. We get 3 tricks, but the 4th could be a problem. I do not like a situation where I am reluctant to bid 4♠,

when I have the nuts. That is why I go for 4♠ and hope for the best. Partner could have 6-4, 5-5, but I do not understand why he didnt bid 4♠, which

seems obvious.

[Caitlynne]

This problem is a problem because of that inadvisable 2C bid. What in the world was wrong with 2S? Two aces are nice, but 4333 distribution (including only 3 card support of very modest quality) is not so good.

 

Just Pass and be ready to apologize to partner if something bad happens. Because, even if partner misdefends badly, your 2C bid contributed to that.

[WesleyC]

OK, I didn't expect the comments I'm getting, maybe "limit raise" was overstating what this bid means for us, it's too good to bid 2, so 9 points, 3 spades.

 

Qxx, Kxx, xxx, AQxx would be a more than decent hand for the limit raise and 2♠ could easily be the limit.

 

Partner will not have 4♠ for this raise (2N is limit+ with 4), without help in the diamond suit 4♠ is very unlikely to make.

 

He did double 4♥ which is why I didn't bid 4♠.

 

Sorry, I misread the explanation of what actually happened. If you pushed me into acting over 4H holding the 3343 hand then I would much rather bid 4S than double.

 

Regarding your second point (and I'm somewhat arguing about style here) if you surveyed top experts [Qxx, Kxx, xxx, AQxx] would also be an automatic 2S bid on this auction!

 

You have a lot of HCP, but an awful hand. Both opponents have bid, your values are all defensive (and sitting poorly) and you *know* partner has a minimum overcall. If partner does have a strong shapely hand with diamonds (which is your main chance of making game) then your hand is terrible! Bid 2S and then consider a speculative penalty double on the next round if the opponents end up in clubs.

 

I think a cue raise should look like KTx Axxxx Qxxx x or similar. A hand that actually does have prospects of making game opposite a shapely overcall if you have the right fit.

[Zelandakh]

Regarding your second point (and I'm somewhat arguing about style here) if you surveyed top experts [Qxx, Kxx, xxx, AQxx] would also be an automatic 2S bid on this auction!

In keeping with the theme started by Rainer, a 1NT advance with this hand seems perfectly reasonable so I think automatic is a slight overbid.