What does this double mean?

[helene_t]

... or more to the point, what is p expected to have.

 

Playing with a good pd, pick-up partnership so the only agreement was "Precision, 1NT=13-15" (but my profile says "undiciplined preempts").

 

I have ♠AQx ♥AKQJxx ♦xx ♣xx. It goes (red vs white, IMPs)

Pd RHO Me LHO

1♦ pass 4♥ 4♠

dbl

Maybe you don't agree with 4♥ but that's what I bid.

[Walddk]

Take-out double is the answer. Maximum for his 1♦ which, playing Precision, must be 15 or very good 14 with 1354, 1345. He could even have 1444. We must have a slam on, maybe a grand slam even.

 

With a penalty of 4♠ partner must pass and wait for me to reopen with a double. That's how I play it; I am sure others have different agreements.

 

I will now make up for my lazy 4♥ call and bid 6♥.

 

A question beside the point: Why the rush? What do you bid with

 

♠ x

♥ AQJ10xxxx

♦ xx

♣ xx

 

If you don't have a strong jump shift available over 1♦, then 1♥ is much better than 4♥ on the hand you actually had. The hand I display is a 4♥ response to me.

 

Roland

[inquiry]

Here I disagree with Roland. When I bid 4H, I have set trumps for our side, so 4Sx can't be takeout, we have agreed on hearts as trumps. Double here is penalty. Now, the fact that I hold AQx makes this interpretation hard to believe, but you asked what the double was? It is penalty, or you can play it as cards (but then a precision opener can't have cards).

 

Ben

[P_Marlowe]

Penalty, but looking at my cards it is probably

take out. "undiciplined preempt " means random

or trash, which makes a negative double at these

colurs and at this level enterprising at best.

 

Opener is limited, and I could have a normal 4H

opener / preempt, which means partner can not

really want to play on the 5 level in a 4-3 fit, if

we have a 7-2 / 7-0 fit.

 

But one question: Why play Precision, if you kill the

space in such a way.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[whereagles]

If 1D is precision, what on Earth pard is doubling on? The only sensible thing I could think of is something like

 

---

xxx

AKxxx

AKxxx

 

though my experience says in practice pard is more likely to have something like

 

xx

xx

AKxxx

AQxx

 

and his double is purely speculative.

 

It really depends on what style this pick-up pard has shown so far. If he's scientific, bid 5S. If he's a light doubler I might pass or bid 5H.

[pclayton]

With 4N as a takeout for the minors, I can't see x being takeout. I can't envision a 3-1-4-5 that wants to double 4♠ for takeout. Our 4♥ says we are interested in hearts as trumps and nothing else.

 

If we held as opener:

 

AJxx, x, AKxx, Kxxx, we'd all open 1♦ and double 4♠ without incident.

 

On the subject hand, holding AQx is suspicious, but it shouldn't alter the meaning of the double. Looking at this holding, double does look more takeout oriented. Well, I pass, and after the session we can talk about the meaning of the double of 4♠ over a beer.

 

If the AQx was in another suit, we'd all pass this hand without thought.

[Guest Jlall]

penalty

[dogsbreath]

agree -- definitely penalty .. since p can have no expectation of us making more than 4H.

Rgdds Dog

[flytoox]

What does 4H show in your sys? I think 4H is a wrong call here, very wrong. If 4H is passable, then it means you are happy to play 4H and have no interest in slam. Consistency implies you should pass pd's dbl, whatever it means.

 

However, pd has nothing in majors. Yet he opened 1D. He should have strength in minors. You can easily make 6H if pd has DAKQxx and Ck. The problem is you dont have anyway to explore. Perhaps you should take the cash and rethink 4H after this board is over.

[joker_gib]

Penalty but I really don't like 4♥ !

 

Why not bid 1♥ ?

[whereagles]

Stop nagging the 4H bid. It is perfectly ok. Opposite an 11-15 opener chances for slam on this hand are remote.

[flytoox]

Stop nagging the 4H bid. It is perfectly ok. Opposite an 11-15 opener chances for slam on this hand are remote.

remote? there are just too many hands pd could have for a slam.

[whereagles]

Yes, remote. You need something like AK AK in the minors for a slam. Not impossible of course, but 4H is a perfectly ok practical bid for a 1st time partnership.

[flytoox]

Yes, remote. You need something like AK AK in the minors for a slam. Not impossible of course, but 4H is a perfectly ok practical bid for a 1st time partnership.

Does it hurt to explore the slam possibility? What is the point of preempting pd with 4H? What if pd DOES have DAK and CAK? How do you plan to explain to pd?

 

4H bid sound more like a hand with X,KQJTxxx,xxx,Ax. If you bid 4H with so wide range pd will find it difficult what to do.

 

Even if pd has sth like x, xxx,AKxxx,Kxxx, slam has very good chance. Pd could have a much better hand.

[HeartA]

Yes, remote. You need something like AK AK in the minors for a slam. Not impossible of course, but 4H is a perfectly ok practical bid for a 1st time partnership.

Does it hurt to explore the slam possibility? What is the point of preempting pd with 4H? What if pd DOES have DAK and CAK? How do you plan to explain to pd?

 

4H bid sound more like a hand with X,KQJTxxx,xxx,Ax. If you bid 4H with so wide range pd will find it difficult what to do.

 

Even if pd has sth like x, xxx,AKxxx,Kxxx, slam has very good chance. Pd could have a much better hand.

Agree with Hongjun. But I will go a step further. I wouldn't bid 4♥ with X,KQJTxxx,xxx,Ax either. Partner could have ♥A, ♦AKQxx, or even ♠A and ♦AK(Q)Jxx.

[han]

Double is absolutely for penalty imo, I pass. I expect partner to hold 4 spades, hearts shortness and some quick tricks in the minors.

 

I would not bid 4H, but it seems to have worked out well.

[flytoox]

Double is absolutely for penalty imo, I pass. I expect partner to hold 4 spades, hearts shortness and some quick tricks in the minors.

 

I would not bid 4H, but it seems to have worked out well.

Pd is just impossible to have 4 spades in the context. He rates to have minor suit tricks to cash.

[Fluffy]

Stop nagging the 4H bid. It is perfectly ok. Opposite an 11-15 opener chances for slam on this hand are remote.

I think opposite ♦AKQxxx ♣A you may have cold 13 tricks, I Was taught to at least try for 6, when you can win 7 opposite a minimum hand :D (ok, ok it is not a minimum hand, but still... :-P).

[Guest Jlall]

Agree 4H doesnt have much to gain and has alot to lose.

[Echognome]

The question seemed to me what does double mean, not "did you like my 4♥ bid?"

 

My view is penalties. Top of the range. Obviously depends on what your partnership agreement about 4♥ is. Also depending on how you play your 2♣ opener, could be 4045 or 4144.

[whereagles]

Does it hurt to explore the slam possibility? What is the point of preempting pd with 4H? What if pd DOES have DAK and CAK? How do you plan to explain to pd?

 

4H bid sound more like a hand with X,KQJTxxx,xxx,Ax. If you bid 4H with so wide range pd will find it difficult what to do.

 

Even if pd has sth like x, xxx,AKxxx,Kxxx, slam has very good chance. Pd could have a much better hand.)

It can hurt, yes. Suppose it goes

 

1D pa 1H 2/3C

pa 5C ??

 

There. Are you happy with the way things deveolped? You're taking the last guess here. If it had gone

 

1D pa 4H ??

 

now it would be LHO who had to take the last guess, as whether to bid 5C all by himself or not. And even if he did guess to bid 5C, pard would know to double or bid 5H in at least some ocasions.

 

Remember: 1D is precision. Opener is limited and has no authority whatsoever to bid above a straight 4H shut out bid. If his RHO passes, opener doesn't have to do or guess anything, he only has to pass.

 

As for the hands, with AQx AKQJxx xx xx I wouldn't bid a straight 4H, but I think 4H it's a perfectly acceptable tactical bid. I would bid 1D-1H because I think the likelyhood of getting preempted (I have AQx of spades after all) does not compensate for the chances of finding a slam if pard is max. Still, if before bidding 1H I took a peek at LHO and realized he was aching to bid, I would DEFINITELY bid a straight 4H and double whatever he tried.

 

With x KQJTxxx xxx Ax a straight 4H is obvious. In fact, if a player doesn't bid 4H on this one he should urgently read a book on precision, because bidding 1D-1H reveals serious difficulties in understanding the concept of a limited opener. (Sorry heartA, but that's just the way it is.

[joker_gib]

As you point it out, this is difficult when opps preempt but it will become impossible if even you, you prempt your partner ! :)

 

I know that playing precision, this bid is limited but only to 16- (I don't play precision so tell me if I'm wrong).

 

There are a lot of weaker hands that can provide slam so I simply can't understand the 4♥ bid.

 

That's all I wanted to say ! :)

 

Alain

[Chamaco]

Does it hurt to explore the slam possibility? What is the point of preempting pd with 4H? What if pd DOES have DAK and CAK? How do you plan to explain to pd?

 

4H bid sound more like a hand with X,KQJTxxx,xxx,Ax. If you bid 4H with so wide range pd will find it difficult what to do.

 

Even if pd has sth like x, xxx,AKxxx,Kxxx, slam has very good chance. Pd could have a much better hand.)

It can hurt, yes. Suppose it goes

 

1D pa 1H 2/3C

pa 5C ??

 

There. Are you happy with the way things deveolped? You're taking the last guess here.

That's one more reason why I love strong Jumpshifts.

 

Here it goes:

 

1D-p-2H

 

and here, regardless of opps preempt, opener's side ahas a clearer picture than overcaller's side: opener knows responder has a 5 losers or better hand with good hearts and responder knows opener is limited.

The combined potential of the hands is easier to evaluate than after an ambiguous, "normal" 1-over-1 response.

[whereagles]

Hum.. strong jump shifts are also midly preemptive. You better have a very well defined hand pattern when you do them, otherwise you're just messing yourself up :)

[Chamaco]

Hum.. strong jump shifts are also midly preemptive. You better have a very well defined hand pattern when you do them, otherwise you're just messing yourself up :)

They sure have to be disciplined:

I use them as strong single suiter (selfsufficient opposite a void) max 5-5.5 losers OR 18+ semibalanced with good 5+ suit (3 of top 5 honors).

 

This is inherited from Mike Lawrence 2/1 (we dropped the 2 suiter JS - e.g. strong suit + strong support for pd - because in Precision 1D does not guarantee diamond, it can be 13-15 bal in our case).

Actually, responding to a Precision opener, I am thinking of excluding the 18+ semibalanced hand from the JS (very little risk if we start the auction by simply responding 1M).

 

I have to say that using the strong JS in a disciplined manner rarely has preempted our side, and is actually extremely useful for

- slam exploration from a lower level (easier to set trumps and start cue at 3 level)

- bidding distributional hand without jumping to 4M right away: you are better placed if opps save, and you won't need to take the last guess.

 

As a matter of fact, with a strong distributional hand, the strong JS tends to SAVE space rather than lose bidding space, because with most standard tools, responder is rarely able to set his trump suit below the 3 level.

 

You lose weak jumpshifts, but it's a price I am willing to pay if playing teams; losing "Reversed Flannery" 2M responses is somewhat more annoying, but again, the frequency/magnitude of the negative impact is acceptable.