Would you have opened, hand on heart?

[Liversidge]

[hv=pc=n&s=sah97542daq6cj853&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=ppp]133|200[/hv]

 

Should I have opened? Some others did so this evening and made 4 hearts, which makes it hard to defend passing.

Our ops said my hand qualified on the rule of 20, my singleton ace was valuable and I was in fourth seat, so I should have opened. I explained that almost all of my points were in my short suits, over a 1NT response I could only bid 2 clubs, and we were at adverse vulnerability.

 

Don't think it is relevant but we play Acol and weak NT.

[manudude03]

I would pass, but think it's close. I would have been very surprised to find we were missing game though.

 

Also, singleton aces are not really good. In fact, if anything, it's something to downgrade.

[Cyberyeti]

I think it's close too, what was partner's hand ?

 

Clearly something like xxxx, KQxxx, Kxx, x will play like a dream

 

If I was going to open in 4th seat, I'd give some consideration to a bent 1N (which we do open on 11 counts pretty regularly in 4th) to avoid giving an easy in for the spade suit.

[apollo1201]

In addition to all the downgrades mentionned (lousy suits, not the lead you want if opps buy the contract, etc.), you only have 1 spade, which means opponents are likely to have them, and as overall HCP strength is pretty balanced between you and them, they are statistically bound to outbid you with the most expensive suit, or you will be pushed a level higher if you want to compete which can be costly at red with the suit quality issues you face.

 

I am not even sure I'd open in 1st or 3rd so I am clearly passing in 4th. I think if you open you will more often score -100, 110, 140 or 200 than +620.

[TIE53]

I'd pass. But as Cyberyeti says, I would give some consideration to 1NT.

[WesleyC]

I think it's a clear pass because the opponents control the spade suit and will usually be able to win the auction.

 

One popular idea for evaluating a 4th seat opening bid is "Pearson Points". You add your HCP to your spade length and open with 15+.

 

While following this rule blindly is obviously a mistake, with a weak heart suit, and only 12 PP I would pass this hand against all but the weakest/tightest opponents.

[eagles123]

personally think that your analysis was spot on op and the opps comments are just pure resulting bullshit. No doubt if you had opened the hand and pushed the opps to their making spade partial/game (a way more likely occurence than us having game in hearts) they would have called it a clear pass. When they call the stiff Ace a good feature you know they're clutching at straws lol

[mike777]

Pass and I do not think it is close even playing with Al Roth or if you prefer playing with any famous MP player :)

 

short spades is a big negative

[wank]

pass. your opps are resulting.

[rmnka447]

There should be no problem passing out this hand.

 

As others have mentioned, ♠ should be a concern. How would you like to open 1 ♥ and allow the opponents to compete to 2 ♠ making when you could have passed out the hand.

 

Something you might do is see which pairs opened the hand. If it's more modestly talented players, don't worry about it. If it's mostly really good players maybe you could ask them about the hand.

 

It might also be that the pairs getting to 4 ♥ opened your partner's hand.

 

I didn't see anything in what you said about how you analyzed the hand that was unreasonable.

 

In 4th seat, use your best judgment about whether to open the hand and don't worry about the results too much. If you've been reasonable in your approach, you're likely to get about average on these boards in the long run. Only consider changing what you do if you find you're consistently getting bad results.

[NickRW]

Pass. And singleton aces are not good features. (They themselves are good, but the overall effect of removing an ace from a long suit is negative). If the long suit were spades I'd give it a go.

[GrahamJson]

It seems to me that this hand contains every feature that downgrades a hand's value; points in short suits, shortage in spades, no lead directing value. Your oppo were talking rubbish.

[Zelandakh]

I would pass fairly comfortably but I also open in 2nd lighter than most and I think that is relevant. If your opps were traditional 13 hcp to open types then opening this hand in fourth may well be just fine. For normal Acol light opening style though, I think it is below the line for opening. It would be uncomfortable opening this and finding the bidding coming back to you with 2♠ by the opps.

[zillahandp]

No

[Caitlynne]

The fact that 4H makes (or made at other tables) is irrelevant. That is judging the long term soundness of a decision by a single result.

 

Yes, the Rule of 20 says you have 20 points so you may CONSIDER opening the hand. It is not a requirement to open with 20.

 

On the other hand, the Rule of 15 says this is a not a 4th seat opener. You have 11 HCP and 1 spade = 12.

 

The point I am trying to make is that this is not a clear cut situation. I would be persuaded to Pass since, if we do have a fit, the opponents seem likely to be able to outbid us in spades. What's more, my honors are not in my long suits, so this hand is more defensively than offensively oriented.

 

If Pass does not work out well, oh well. Bidding might not work out well either.

 

Likewise, if a partner were to open 1H, I would not like it, but I certainly would not say anything about it because it is hardly unreasonable.

[msjennifer]

No.Not for my money.Any day any time.

[tfoerster]

Absolutely not in 4th seat. The shortness in spades should be a clear warning sign: Opps may well be able to outbid you, since they have the boss suit.

 

A common guideline for opening in 4th seat is the Rule of 15: Add number of spades to HCP and only open if the sum is 15 or more. Like most rules this is a good starting point for further analysis.

[bridgepali]

Based on the outcome, "others did so this evening and made 4H's", assuming there were no playing errors giving up tricks, the "others" had to have a minimum of 26 pts. to make a four level bid. Your reluctance to open I take was your concern with having enough points between the partnership's combined hands for a two level response bid which would require a minimum of 20 pts.

 

In as much as there had been three passes, it can be assumed each passed hand had less than thirteen points. With your hand having 11 hcpts., those hands on average had 9 hcpts. enough to warrant an opening bid.

 

Depending upon the point count method used, your hand had 12 to 14 pts. The difference being what the developers of the method believed a singleton is worth. Obviously, those who opened the hand believe a singleton has a greater value than the method you use.

 

If the singleton were a king or queen, I would have passed. Otherwise, I would have opened the hand invoking the Rule of Twenty, Goren or Roth whose writings place the value of a singleton at 2 pts. Personally, I believe a singleton is worth 3 pts. I also would have deducted 3 pts. if the singleton had been a king or queen.

[mgoetze]

the "others" had to have a minimum of 26 pts. to make a four level bid.

You sound pretty smart, do you offer private lessons?

[Osbert]

2.5 QT with shape is an opening hand. Downside is lack of honors in the long suits. Singleton Ace in spades. Danger is that you can be outbid to 2S.

Playing strength is about 13 HCP & distributon pts with downgrades. If the opps do bid spades they may find a 4-1 split difficult to handle.

Partner only needs xxxx Kxxx Kxx xx and will make 10 tricks it the trumps split 2-2 and the Ace is right. More trump fillers and game is cold. Short clubs is key here. Doeshe have them?

Enough to explore.

Recommendation 1H

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Our ops said my hand qualified on the rule of 20, ...

<snip>

 

My first comment would be, that your ops should go back and reread the rule of 20.

The rule of 20 is ok, but using it to justify opening the given hand is the reason,

the rule is sometimes considered ill advice.

 

With respect to opening the hand: I think this is touch and go, and the only opinion

that really matters, is the opinion of your partner.

If you / your partner regular opens light, Acol favoring light openings, than pass

becomes more attractive.

 

And finally: Just because someone made somehow 4H does not mean, you want to be there.

Ask yourself how good is the contract, before you try to construct an auction, that

gets you to this specific making contract, but will lead to stupid contracts, when the

layout is slightly different.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Phil]

I'd pass but I'm comforted by knowing my partner would open hands like AKJxx xx Kxx xxx in 2nd seat or even worse.

[billw55]

Depending upon the point count method used, your hand had 12 to 14 pts.

Really? K&R is 10.60, which supports the forum consensus to pass.

 

But you will notice that nobody point-counted it. They used judgment, recognizing negative features such as short suit honors, an awful long suit, and lack of spades in 4th seat.

 

 

[mikestar13]

What did partner pass with in second seat? It could be that the mistake was his, if there were any.

[billw55]

Should I have opened? Some others did so this evening and made 4 hearts, which makes it hard to defend passing.

I overlooked this at first. This reasoning is totally wrong, the very definition of resulting. Bridge is a game of percentages. There will always be cases where an inferior action gains, or a superior action loses. It is not even rare, probably happening every session. And sometimes, one or more players will have taken the inferior action.

 

Say your 4♠ contract is on a simple finesse for the trump king, missing four trumps. You take it, but it loses to a stiff king. It turns out that a couple of beginners who have not yet learned to finesse made their contract by laying down the ace. Would you say that this result makes it hard to defend the finesse? Of course not. You would not even take such a claim seriously. Well, your statement above is not really much different, just on a higher level.

 

The result on the current deal alone does not tell us whether the action chosen was good or bad.