I open two clubs and partner jumps to five, but...

[Lovera]

http://tinyurl.com/joe73uc

[Lovera]

...when i was thinking if i had to use kickback to have informations i saw once (or was the second time?) "Automated :Lovera is your turn bid please" so i bid 6♣ when, in a while, i was off the table and i was unable to return. Now i see bidding is 5♣ : what is happened ? I and my partner cannot play it (and i think also GIB) but the planning development is rich (almost 4/5 ways). The "trap" is no trump 'cause comunication and controls because is not the case to remain quite.

[hrothgar]

Given that neither you nor your partner had anything remotely resembling your bids, what do you expect us to say?

 

Let me start with the following: "Until you learn what a 2C opening looks like, you are not allowed to use words like Kickback"

 

Seriously, this may be the worst bid hand that I have seen in years.

[Lovera]

Given that neither you nor your partner had anything remotely resembling your bids, what do you expect us to say?

 

Let me start with the following: "Until you learn what a 2C opening looks like, you are not allowed to use words like Kickback"

 

Seriously, this may be the worst bid hand that I have seen in years.

Infact, but how i have explained i raise to six but.. anything happened that altered final bidding probably not registering my 6♣. Although, to avoid time and compications i bid so but..About 2♣ opening i already told how i verify idoneity (losersx5<points).

[steve2005]

Loser count is not a good method for determining weather to open 2♣. Loser count works only if you have found a fit. Look, here you didn't find your fit are playing clubs your hand is 8 losers, If you can pull trump and set up hearts you have 7 tricks and 5 losers. Not exactly great.

 

Opening 2♣ makes it hard to find your fit which you so desperately need,

Open 1♠ and you will likely find ♥'s

[Lovera]

Loser count is not a good method for determining weather to open 2♣. Loser count works only if you have found a fit. Look, here you didn't find your fit are playing clubs your hand is 8 losers, If you can pull trump and set up hearts you have 7 tricks and 5 losers. Not exactly great.

 

Opening 2♣ makes it hard to find your fit which you so desperately need,

Open 1♠ and you will likely find ♥'s

Hello. I know that you (american) use more to open from first level, but this "rule" is not mine but suggest by G. Barbone (that i think is known in bridge world) and that i apply when had to decide if. When i saw partner biddings asked to me because to get at five but surely meanings was a long and (semi)autonom suit then i bid (i hoped) six (having although +3.47 with 5♣ but almost +6,.. with six clubs).

[ahydra]

Loser count is not a good method for determining [whether] to open 2♣. Loser count works only if you have found a fit. Look, here you didn't find your fit are playing clubs your hand is 8 losers, If you can pull trump and set up hearts you have 7 tricks and 5 losers. Not exactly great.

 

LTC is OK to use on single-suited hands. A common criterion is: at most 4 losers with a major suit or 3 with a minor suit = open 2C, otherwise open 1x.

 

I'm confused where you get 8 losers from. You're correct that LTC is somewhat meaningless without a fit, but assuming 5C showed a self-supporting suit (it should surely show a pretty good suit opposite what could be a void), that'll be fit enough; you can now use LTC just fine and have 4 losers, just like you would if you were playing in any of the other three suits.

 

The problem here is that it's unwise to open two-suiters (or in general shapely hands that don't have a definite trump suit) 2C unless they're truly massive (where e.g. a fit and a king somewhere will still make game). This hand could be shown just fine by opening 1S and rebidding 2H or 3H according to agreements.

 

BTW I also don't agree with 5C - 3C is forcing and saves a lot of room. You could belong in anything from 5C to 7NT. Perhaps 4C is OK, if it sets trumps.

 

Open 1♠ and you will likely find ♥'s

 

I think South would be unwise to settle for hearts with such a wonderful club suit but no outside entries, unless perhaps he was playing matchpoints.

 

losersx5<points

 

4 * 5 is not less than 18...

 

ahydra

[Bbradley62]

In case it's relevant to the issue of hearts vs clubs: we're playing IMPs on this hand.

[hrothgar]

Hello. I know that you (american) use more to open from first level, but this "rule" is not mine but suggest by G. Barbone (that i think is known in bridge world) and that i apply when had to decide if. When i saw partner biddings asked to me because to get at five but surely meanings was a long and (semi)autonom suit then i bid (i hoped) six (having although +3.57 with 5♣ but almost +6,.. with six clubs).

 

Perhaps you might want to ask G Barbone what you should have done over partner's 5♣ bid?

I don't understand the point of posting a request for help if you're going to (then) dismiss people's advice.

 

Opening 2♣ with this hand is an atrocity.

This isn't a "minor" error. Choosing to open 2♣ on this hand shows a player who is clueless about very elementary bidding.

 

I would be shocked if you can find a single decent player who would support this opening...

[neilkaz]

What system are you playing where that hand is an opening 2♣ bid? I ask bcuz I want to make sure to not play that system, whatever it is!

[robert2734]

What is Lovera original question? Is she asking about taking too much time and having the robot bid for her? I wasn't sure she asked for bidding advice even tho she gotton plenty of it. 6C would have made if you were in it but I do not criticize Lovera for not risking her contract for an overtrick. Whatever the merits of this auction you seemed to have landed on your feet.

[manudude03]

I much prefer the 5♣ bid to the 2♣ opener. Add the ♥Q and I'm still not opening 2♣. The play was also pretty poor, the contract was never in any danger, and so you could just play 4 rounds of trumps throwing 2 hearts, a spade and a diamond, after which it costs nothing to try for 3-3 spades or West having 3+ hearts and 4+spades.

[nullve]

What system are you playing where that hand is an opening 2♣ bid? I ask bcuz I want to make sure to not play that system, whatever it is!

Maybe he's playing SEF or Benji Acol.

[rmnka447]

2 ♣ is probably a bit overaggressive. But the problem is making the wild jump immediately. There's no problem with letting partner in on your hand.

 

2 ♣ - 3 ♣ (positive)

3 ♠ - 5 ♣

 

Now opener with 5 sure cover cards ought to have an easy 6 ♣ bid.

 

Likewise, you might do something similar after a 1 ♠ opener.

 

1 ♠ - 2 ♣

3 ♥ - ?

 

Opener's values are in suits you hold, but your ♣ might not be any use for partner in a major contract. Opener doesn't guarantee more than 4 ♥ and, at times, may be on 3. So what's your next bid? 4 ♣ followed by 5 ♣ probably is an underbid. You can't be certain 4 ♥ is right. So, maybe you jump to 5 ♣. I think it sends the message -- "I've heard what you said and don't care what ♣ you hold I willing to play 5 ♣ opposite your bids so far."

 

Both 5 ♣ bids create what I've been taught is called a "momentum auction". Opener looks at all the primes and thinks "Partner must have solid ♣. If he/she has the right hand to bid 5 ♣ then with all these primes I must have enough to bid on and bid 6 ♣." These type of auctions do come up on a somewhat frequent basis.

[helene_t]

Seriously, this may be the worst bid hand that I have seen in years.

Nah, you exagerate.

 

2♣ is a bit exentric but it is a style thing. 5♣ is a strange bid but if the bid exists at all, maybe it shows something like this? Solid clubs and nothing else. Not an unreasonable definition, although I would rather expect the same hand without ♣A.

[wank]

this is rather excessive. 2C is a modest overbid. with a major suit queen it would be clear.

 

5c is considerably worse.

[Lovera]

Eartquake is the word to define it that has surprised myself in two ways : thanks for yours contributions, obviously, yet because there was, in this topic anything of strange. Simply i was sure to have 21 points - initial valutation - that cannot all be used for 2♣ opening. Infact this bidding(=2♣) is wrong with 18 /20 points and four losers.

[Lovera]

What is Lovera original question? Is she asking about taking too much time and having the robot bid for her? I wasn't sure she asked for bidding advice even tho she gotton plenty of it. 6C would have made if you were in it but I do not criticize Lovera for not risking her contract for an overtrick. Whatever the merits of this auction you seemed to have landed on your feet.

And now i try to respond : initial aim is that an hand with many ways to solve is not usual and i think was to be noticed.

[eagles123]

this is rather excessive. 2C is a modest overbid. with a major suit queen it would be clear.

 

5c is considerably worse.

 

really with the exact same hand and a major queen are we really opening 2c - would never occur to me?

[Lovera]

I much prefer the 5♣ bid to the 2♣ opener. Add the ♥Q and I'm still not opening 2♣. The play was also pretty poor, the contract was never in any danger, and so you could just play 4 rounds of trumps throwing 2 hearts, a spade and a diamond, after which it costs nothing to try for 3-3 spades or West having 3+ hearts and 4+spades.

About bidding i agree with you..now.

[Zelandakh]

Nah, you exagerate.

Agreed.

 

5♣ is a strange bid but if the bid exists at all, maybe it shows something like this? Solid clubs and nothing else.

But here I disagree. I think 5♣ should show something like ♣QJTxxxxx and out. The solid club hand can start with 4♣.

[Lovera]

Nah, you exagerate.

 

2♣ is a bit exentric but it is a style thing. 5♣ is a strange bid but if the bid exists at all, maybe it shows something like this? Solid clubs and nothing else. Not an unreasonable definition, although I would rather expect the same hand without ♣A.

This is what i was thinking at table :a suit not completely selfsupporting.

[hrothgar]

Agreed.

 

 

But here I disagree. I think 5♣ should show something like ♣QJTxxxxx and out. The solid club hand can start with 4♣.

 

Why on god's green earth would I ever want to show that hand at the 5 level?

 

Sure, lets bye pass 3N and 4 of a major to show a trump suit with two guaranteed losers and make sure that we can't explore for a fit!

[wank]

really with the exact same hand and a major queen are we really opening 2c - would never occur to me?

 

xx

xx

 

in the majors is play for 5.

 

a good rule for opening 2c is to do it if you're likely to make game opposite xxx xxx xxx xxx plus 1 useless card. the answer with an extra major suit queen would be yes.

 

and before anyone claims otherwise, you will often get passed out at the 1 level when you hold both majors and 20 high - opps won't rescue you if they're short in hearts.

[GrahamJson]

My view is that the N had isn't that far off a 2C bid. The old rule used to be "more quick tricks than losers". In this case it has 5 quick tricks and 4 losers, so qualifies, although I agree it is a bit light by modern standards.

 

The 5C response is a bit excessive. As 3C would be game forcing a jump to 4C should show a solid suit, so would be a reasonable bid. N could then cue bid 4D and end up in 6C when S has nothing more to say.