Opening with very little

[mgoetze]

I presented 2 hands which satisfy the rule of 20. One is a reasonable opener and one isn't. A new player is unlikely to know the difference between the two hands. So just giving this newer person the rule of 20 as a handy dandy tool to use for openers is a disservice.

So what are you going to do instead? Tell them to stop playing bridge and study hand evaluation for a couple of months instead? That would be a disservice.

[nullve]

There is nonetheless a major difference in strength between ♠QJ ♥QJ ♦QJ32 ♣QJ432 and ♠AKT98 ♥KQT9 ♦T98 ♣T

Yes.

 

both are Rule of 21 hands with the same number of hcp.

That depends on what we mean by 'hcp'. When Goren was popularising Milton Work's 4-3-2-1 method, he also taught players to make adjustments based on honour location and possession or lack of intermediates. So your first example hand would only be worth 10 hcp (at most!) after subtracting 1 hcp for each QJ doubleton, while your second example hand would be upgraded to 13 hcp (at least!) because of well-placed honours and the abundance of intermediates. So if hcp's are counted the way Goren intended, neither of these hands are Rule of 21 hands, and only the latter satisfies the Rule of 20.

 

But if it's ok at the novice/beginner level to count hcp's without making the sort of adjustments Goren recommended, then it's presumably also ok to use the Rule of 20 without making those same adjustments.

[woodych]

WOW,THANK YOU FOR SO MANY GREAT REPLIES i WAS NEVER EXPECTING THAT MANY.

 

I think I will for now stick with 11+ face card points as a possible start and I will read some books.

 

I appreciate the time you have all taken to reply thank you:)

[woodych]

PS. Apologies for cap lock.

[rmnka447]

So what are you going to do instead? Tell them to stop playing bridge and study hand evaluation for a couple of months instead? That would be a disservice.

Nope, but some good guidance in hand evaluation doesn't hurt. Suggesting months of study is a gross exaggeration AND a disservice. I suggest "Hand Evaluation" by Marty Bergen, 64 pages, readable in a couple hours at most. It's excellent. It even includes a couple of comments about the Rule of 20 of which Marty has been a huge proponent.

[Mbodell]

The problem with the rule of 20 is that it is one of the most misused devices there is. For example, if we make a minor change to one of billw55's example hands, you'll have a hand that meets the rule of 20 -- ♠ Kx ♥ Qxxx ♦ QJxxx ♣ Kx. It has 11 HCP and 9 cards in the longest two suits, but I'm confident that virtually none of the top notch players that I regularly play against would open that hand.

 

I'd wager at least a third, and probably more than half, of top players open that hand. It is a bidders game, you have a good rebid, meets the rule of 20.

 

More over, for beginners having a rule is a good idea. A good rule is always open 12 hcp hands, and also always open rule of 20 hands. Is that going to be perfect or what all experts do? No. But it will be pretty good, and I bet there are a dozen or more other things to worry about before worrying about refining this.

[rmnka447]

I'd wager at least a third, and probably more than half, of top players open that hand.

Bring'em on. I could use the opportunity to pad my results.

[neilkaz]

Bring'em on. I could use the opportunity to pad my results.

We agree. I pass this out. Also what good rebid do you have after opening? 11 quacky aceless HCP seems light for a NT rebid.

 

One reason to strive to open in 2nd seat is that you can pass this out confident that you're making a clear percentage decision. By strive I mean don't find excuses to not open.

[Mbodell]

Over 1H you raise to 2, over 1S you bid 1nt, over 1nt you pass, over 2C you bid 2D. Pretty comfortable overall.

[neilkaz]

Over 1H you raise to 2, over 1S you bid 1nt, over 1nt you pass, over 2C you bid 2D. Pretty comfortable overall.

So you're happy rebidding 1NT with an 11 count or rebidding 2♦ over 2♣ with this suit and an 11 count?

 

I like bidding more than many here, but I clearly think that the odds favor passing this hand out.

 

If you play a lightish opening system where this hand can be opened in 2nd seat and where a weak 2♠ can be stretched(since it really is preemptive!) then you have to ask yourself where are the ♠ and where are the missing HCP?

[1eyedjack]

With a balanced 11 count in 1st or 2nd seat I am more comfortable opening a weak 1N than I am opening 1-suit in a strong 1N system.

[bridgepali]

You don't seem convinced by the negative results you have experienced that opening a hand under trump play with a five card strain and less than 13 pts. is a losing proposition. Reading your narrative "Opening with very little" I get the sense that the Rule of 20 is be being taken out of context. The Rule of 20 is a guideline for opening marginal hands and reads, "When the hcpts.(face cards) plus the number of cards in the two longest strains adds to twenty or more, open the bidding.". In other words, a hand that has xxxxx, xxxx, xx, xx, or xxxxx, xxxx, xxx, x, or xxxxx, xxxx, xxxx, <> and 11 hcpts or more can be opened.

 

The Rule of 20 is an adaptation from the point count method developed and institutionalized by Goren and associates. They valued a doubleton at one point, a singleton at two points and a void at three points. When applied to the hand examples in the previous paragraph, each one is worth more than 13 pts., the amount of points universally recommended for opening a hand. The Rule of 20 supplements the arsenal for those players who do not use shortness points, as purported by the ACBL, for opening hands to expedite games.

 

Outside of face cards there are very few point valued altering affects to add to or subtract from hcpts. leaving it to a player's experience to determine a hand's point value. For some its a challenge. For others its discouraging and in my opinion the leading cause for not becoming a devotee to the game.

 

 

One point can make a difference between making and not making a contract. I am in the process of perfecting a point count method in which point altering affects are numerically standardized. If a computer can do it, so can a human. Here's a tip: reduce a response hand's point value by 3 pts. for a singleton king, queen or doubleton queen except when it is with it's ace. It will help control overbidding.

 

If you would like to know more about the approach I am taking to numerically standardizing point counting send an e-mail to bridgepal@comcast.net and I will reply with a listing of verified point value altering affects for trump and no=trump play.

[Zelandakh]

Here's a tip: reduce a response hand's point value by 3 pts. for a singleton king, queen or doubleton queen except when it is with it's ace.

An interesting idea for a singleton queen to be worth less than a singleton 2 and for QT to be worth less than 32 - is this really what you meant?

[bridgepali]

An interesting idea for a singleton queen to be worth less than a singleton 2 and for QT to be worth less than 32 - is this really what you meant?

[bridgepali]

Yes.

[1eyedjack]

Yes.

I am putting words in your mouth, but I assume that this is based on your still possessing a Queen, but in another suit

[Lovera]

You don't seem convinced by the negative results you have experienced that opening a hand under trump play with a five card strain and less than 13 pts. is a losing proposition. Reading your narrative "Opening with very little" I get the sense that the Rule of 20 is be being taken out of context. The Rule of 20 is a guideline for opening marginal hands and reads, "When the hcpts.(face cards) plus the number of cards in the two longest strains adds to twenty or more, open the bidding.". In other words, a hand that has xxxxx, xxxx, xx, xx, or xxxxx, xxxx, xxx, x, or xxxxx, xxxx, xxxx, <> and 11 hcpts or more can be opened.

 

The Rule of 20 is an adaptation from the point count method developed and institutionalized by Goren and associates. They valued a doubleton at one point, a singleton at two points and a void at three points. When applied to the hand examples in the previous paragraph, each one is worth more than 13 pts., the amount of points universally recommended for opening a hand. The Rule of 20 supplements the arsenal for those players who do not use shortness points, as purported by the ACBL, for opening hands to expedite games.

 

Outside of face cards there are very few point valued altering affects to add to or subtract from hcpts. leaving it to a player's experience to determine a hand's point value. For some its a challenge. For others its discouraging and in my opinion the leading cause for not becoming a devotee to the game.

 

 

One point can make a difference between making and not making a contract. I am in the process of perfecting a point count method in which point altering affects are numerically standardized. If a computer can do it, so can a human. Here's a tip: reduce a response hand's point value by 3 pts. for a singleton king, queen or doubleton queen except when it is with it's ace. It will help control overbidding.

 

If you would like to know more about the approach I am taking to numerically standardizing point counting send an e-mail to bridgepal@comcast.net and I will reply with a listing of verified point value altering affects for trump and no=trump play.

Hi bridgepali,where you said : " One point can make a difference between making and not making a contract. I am in the process of perfecting a point count method in which point altering affects are numerically standardized. If a computer can do it, so can a human. Here's a tip: reduce a response hand's point value by 3 pts. for a singleton king, queen or doubleton queen except when it is with it's ace. It will help control overbidding." Can you put, than three examples of hands reponse to watch and understand better what are trying to explain ? Thanks.

[1eyedjack]

I am in the process of perfecting a point count method {snip}. If a computer can do it, so can a human.

Hmmm

There is scant evidence to suggest that a human can do anything that a computer can do.

There is scant evidence to suggest that a computer has achieved this particular objective.

Combining the two, the quoted passage does not mean a great deal, to me.

 

{edited to change name of author of quote}

[Lovera]

Hmmm

There is scant evidence to suggest that a human can do anything that a computer can do.

There is scant evidence to suggest that a computer has achieved this particular objective.

Combining the two, the quoted passage does not mean a great deal, to me.

Hi 1eyedjack, sorry but the phrase quoted in green on 3/4/16 in post #43 is by bridgepauli and not mine(Lovera), bye.

[Lovera]

Following post #42 and also considering post #47 too it'd help to see cards in, let's say N and S as hand responding ,in the form ♠, etc. it being trump the long suit. Edited April 4, 2016 by Lovera

[1eyedjack]

Hi 1eyedjack, sorry but the phrase quoted in green on 3/4/16 in post #43 is by bridgepauli and not mine(Lovera), bye.

you are right - I shall go back and edit

[bridgepali]

:blink: The following tips are predicated on a strain having a 5/3 footprint.

 

Under trump play, on knowing the combined hands have a 5/4 footprint in a perspective trump strain, add 3 pts. to the hand's point count. Subtract 3 pts. from hand's point count on knowing a perspective trump strain will have less than three cards in one of the combined hands.

 

Under no-trump play when a hand has two of the top four honors, the jack, the ten or both embedded amongst four or five cards of a strain, add 3 pts. to the hand's point count.

 

Said calculations are made prior to making a bid and are intended to produce a more accurate point count to match-up against the Combined Hand Equivalent Chart* (points to tricks) to come up with the optimum bid level or pass. :wacko:

 

*Do not know who to credit for it.

[billw55]

:blink: :wacko:

I agree with these two parts of your post.

[bridgepali]

:( Based on writings and brochures pure numerical point counting evolved during the 1940's. For it was during that decade it was determined that under no-trump play a minimum of 20 pts. would usually take seven tricks, 23 pts. eight tricks, 26 pts. nine tricks and so on every three point increment up to twelve/thirteen tricks. It was also determined at that time that under trump play the 3 pt. scale would usually take one more trick than under no-trump play. Interestingly, 3pts is the average point value Milton Work placed on the ace, king and queen.

 

Out of this came the Combined Hand Equivalent Chart, a pure numeric point counting method equating points to tricks. Why more players today are not using it I find hard to comprehend. For the method takes the guess work out of bidding.

 

It is common knowledge that card formations affect point count, yet are not considered apart of it. It would seem the card info incorporated with a bid would be useful if it's affect were known. Example: Under the 5 card Modern American Bidding System, when an opener opens with one of a major the strain is to have five cards. Knowing that and knowing whenever an opener's partner has four cards of the opening strain an additional trick can be taken, opener's partner can increase the response support bid by 3 pts.

 

To date with the use of a computer software program I have documented thirteen card formations under trump play that affect point counting and eight under no-trump play. The majority having a one trick plus/minus affect.

 

It is not my intent to convert players from their point counting method. Rather to inform, especially beginners, of a simpler more accurate method. For if I hadn't found this method for counting points, I would have giving bridge up shortly after I started nine years ago. :D

[gwnn]

Qx Qx xxxxx xxxx would be worth -2 points so if my partner has 25 and wants to play game, I would need to pass a forcing bid or otherwise stop him before we get too high.