Opening with very little

[woodych]

I am a beginner trying to improve my game by playing in BBO free tournaments and watching other players bid and play.

 

I am coming across many hands now where my partner opens 1 in a suit and I have maybe 11-15 face card points and assume it is game on.

 

At the end of the hand we have gone down having clearly overbid because my partner opened with 7-10 face card points on the basis of having a 5 card suit.

 

I have always been advised only to open (rather than a response bid) with at least 11+ face card points otherwise I am giving my partner the wrong signals.

 

It has now got to the point where I can no longer assume my partner will have what I would call opening points so I afraid to bid with what I have.

 

Can anyone please confirm if it is ok to open with so few points just on the basis of having 5 in a suit?

 

Thank you

Peter

[hrothgar]

Unless you and partner have agree otherwise, standard methods generally assume that players will have the equivalent of 10+ HCPs if they are opening in first or second seat.

 

Some players may choose to open a bit lighter in 3rd seat seat.

[billw55]

Also, high card points are not the only means of evaluating a hand. For example:

 

♠KQJTx

♥Axxx

♦x

♣xxx

 

is a fine hand that I would open 1♠ in any seat. However,

 

 

♠ Kxx

♥Qxx

♦KJxxx

♣Qx

 

has one HCP more, but nevertheless is a worse hand that I would pass in first or second seat.

[woodych]

Thank you for those replies

 

Looks like I have to re-learn this game from scratch as I have always been told not to open that light.

[woodych]

Hmmm, just tried what you both suggested opening with low points because I had a void suit with 6 spades my partner took my opener as i assume more that 10+ points asked me for aces we got doubled and went down badly.

I give up..lol

[billw55]

Hmmm, just tried what you both suggested opening with low points because I had a void suit with 6 spades my partner took my opener as i assume more that 10+ points asked me for aces we got doubled and went down badly.

I give up..lol

If you can show us both hands and the complete bidding, we can discuss what went wrong.

 

In any case, bridge is a partnership game. You need to understand what your partner is doing, and vice versa. This can only come with experience - even an expert will have misunderstandings with a new partner.

 

No need to give up. None of us would get where we are if we quit after a few disasters. Which, by the way, never go away entirely, just become less frequent.

[nullve]

The number of high card points (hcp) you need to open should depend on the shape of your hand. So instead of just counting hcp, I suggest you use the popular rule described here

 

https://www.larryco.com/bridge-learning-center/detail/481

 

when considering whether to open in first or second seat. (Opening in 3rd or 4th seat is a slightly different matter, though.)

[woodych]

Thank you both and I wish I could show you that hand but I withrew from the tournament as I felt bad about the hand.

 

I will loom at that link, thank you

 

Peter

[Zelandakh]

The number of high card points (hcp) you need to open should depend on the shape of your hand. So instead of just counting hcp, I suggest you use the popular rule described here

There is nonetheless a major difference in strength between ♠QJ ♥QJ ♦QJ32 ♣QJ432 and ♠AKT98 ♥KQT9 ♦T98 ♣T although both are Rule of 21 hands with the same number of hcp.

[billw55]

The number of high card points (hcp) you need to open should depend on the shape of your hand. So instead of just counting hcp, I suggest you use the popular rule described here

 

https://www.larryco....nter/detail/481

 

when considering whether to open in first or second seat. (Opening in 3rd or 4th seat is a slightly different matter, though.)

Yes, the rule of 20 is another useful tool. But no tool is absolute, nor should be used in isolation. See my example above, with ten HCP and 54 shape. Are you passing? Would an extra stiff J make a difference?

 

Evaluation tools are guidelines, not substitutes for judgement.

 

 

[rmnka447]

I am a beginner trying to improve my game by playing in BBO free tournaments and watching other players bid and play.

 

I am coming across many hands now where my partner opens 1 in a suit and I have maybe 11-15 face card points and assume it is game on.

 

At the end of the hand we have gone down having clearly overbid because my partner opened with 7-10 face card points on the basis of having a 5 card suit.

 

I have always been advised only to open (rather than a response bid) with at least 11+ face card points otherwise I am giving my partner the wrong signals.

 

It has now got to the point where I can no longer assume my partner will have what I would call opening points so I afraid to bid with what I have.

 

Can anyone please confirm if it is ok to open with so few points just on the basis of having 5 in a suit?

The advice you received about the amount needed to open was fine, especially for a beginner. I think the player who opened 7-10 high card points (HCP) because of a 5 card suit was quite a bit beyond the norm of what most good players would do.

 

Since you say you watch other players bid and play to learn, I'd suggest you look for an "interesting table" with JEC as a player. JEC is Jim Cayne, a world class American player, who has won many national and international events. Watch what hands he and his partner open at the 1 level. I think you'll find that they rarely open hands with less than what you were advised to do unless it's a weak 2 bid or preempt.

 

billw55 posed some good examples to show that there is more to hand evaluation than just HCP. They speak to how well the high cards work together to provide trick taking potential. One hand has them pretty much working together, while the other the high cards are dangling by themselves with reduced trick taking effectiveness.

 

One way to measure this is by counting quick tricks (also called defensive tricks). Quick tricks (QT) are combinations of cards in each suit that provide trick taking potential. You count them for each suit individually and sum the individual suit QTs for an overall number for the hand. Quick tricks are assigned as follows: AK(x...) in suit are 2 QTs, AQ(x...) in a suit are 1 1/2 QTs, A(x...) in a suit is 1 QT, KQ(x...) in a suit is 1 QT, and Kx(x...) is 1/2 QT. You can think of HCP as providing a count of the overall size of a hand while QTs measure the strength of its foundation.

 

Looking at billw55's examples - ♠ KQJxx ♥ Axxx ♦ x ♣ xxx - there's 1 QT in ♠ and 1 QT in ♥ for 2 QTs total for the hand. ♠ Kxx ♥ Qxx ♦ KJxxx ♣ Qx - there's 1/2 QT in ♠ and 1/2 QT in ♦ for 1 QT total for the hand. So you can see that although the second hand has more HCP, it has a weaker foundation. If it were instead ♠ KQx ♥ xxx ♦ KQJxx ♣ xx, it would have 2 QTs and be much better to bid on.

 

One widely taught standard for opening 1 of a suit bids is 12 HCP and 2 QTs for an opening bid in 1st or 2nd seat. With 2 1/2 QTs opening with 11 HCP is OK. All 3 QT hands are normally be opened. If you have 1 1/2 QT, you need some extra HCP normally 13-14 to open. 1 QT hands are not usually opened. (Now some posters may want to differ about these requirements. That's OK if that's their style. But for a newer player, these standards are a good basis for building solid bidding habits which is important for progressing as a player.)

 

Again, if you watch someone like JEC, I think you'll find that he doesn't vary much from what I'm suggesting.

[neilkaz]

You can just go to bridgebase.com and login and check your hand records from when you played that T and then tell us what you opened on. IMO, you've been taught some different things about opening and some of it conflicts and may just be plain wrong. Perhaps your weakish hand with a 6 card suit should've been opened with a weak 2. Perhaps your PD overbid by immediately asking for aces... etc etc.

[mgoetze]

Quite amazing, but it had to happen eventually... I agree with nullve! The Rule of 20 is an excellent starting point for beginners. Is it perfect? No, of course not. But I don't think woodych is getting much benefit from the attempts of other posters to discuss the finer points of hand evaluation. He needs a solid rule to go by for now and the rule of 20 fits perfectly.

[fromageGB]

Bridge with random partners is a lottery, and you are not likely to develop judgement quickly. Much better is to find a partnership with someone on a similar (or better!) level and take the time to discuss methods. If you agree to open all 7 counts, it can work because you know what partner may have, but I would argue that it may not be effective. If you agree never to open without 12, at the other extreme, that will work better. But the rule of 20 is an excellent choice, and when playing with randoms I would stick to that and assume your partner has that for his own opening.

 

My preferred simple modifications to this are not to open an 11 count with a 54 shape, and to open 1m on a 12 count 43 shape.

[rmnka447]

Quite amazing, but it had to happen eventually... I agree with nullve! The Rule of 20 is an excellent starting point for beginners. Is it perfect? No, of course not. But I don't think woodych is getting much benefit from the attempts of other posters to discuss the finer points of hand evaluation. He needs a solid rule to go by for now and the rule of 20 fits perfectly.

The problem with the rule of 20 is that it is one of the most misused devices there is. For example, if we make a minor change to one of billw55's example hands, you'll have a hand that meets the rule of 20 -- ♠ Kx ♥ Qxxx ♦ QJxxx ♣ Kx. It has 11 HCP and 9 cards in the longest two suits, but I'm confident that virtually none of the top notch players that I regularly play against would open that hand.

 

Marty Bergen (world class player recognized as a foremost bidding expert), who developed the rule of 20, regularly cites hands in his books hands that meet the rule of 20, but shouldn't be opened. He also cites hands that don't meet the rule of 20, but which should always be opened. So saying or implying that the rule of 20 is a tool that can be used indiscriminately is just plain wrong.

 

OTOH, change the example hand to ♠ xx ♥ KQxx ♦ KQJxx ♣ xx. I'm confident that virtually all those top notch players that passed the previous example would open this hand 1 ♦ in a flash.

 

What's the difference? (Hint: Check the QT count.)

[mgoetze]

Interesting, rmnka447, you quoted what I wrote but I don't feel that you replied to it at all. In fact if you moved my quote to below your message, rather than above it, it would make more sense entirely.

[1eyedjack]

Hmmm, just tried what you both suggested opening with low points because I had a void suit with 6 spades my partner took my opener as i assume more that 10+ points asked me for aces we got doubled and went down badly.

I give up..lol

Was this your hand?

 

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Yes you have your void but you only have 5 Spades, not 6. Which would make a big difference but even then I think not big enough. Your suits are simply too poor. Just because it may be acceptable to open some hands light, it does not mean that every hand should be opened.

 

Your partner shares some of the blame. 4N response is a bit precipitous, but really this is not an opener.

 

Position is also important. If your partner has already passed then he is unlikely to respond with blackwood. In 3rd seat after 2 passes you may expect LHO to be strong and need to stir it up and deny him a free run at the auction. Hence you are given more latitude in 3rd seat than in 1st or 2nd.

[GrahamJson]

"I am a beginner trying to improve my game by playing in BBO free tournaments and watching other players bid and play."

 

Stop there. I'm afraid that you will not learn how to play well by doing this. The great majority of players on BBO are of very low standard. You will be much better off by reading some decent books on bidding and play. Start with basic texts and work your way up. Also, don't get carried away with conventions. BBO is full of players who know Cappelletti but can't count to thirteen. Don't forget that most conventions are only useful in a regular partnership in which you have discussed details such as follow up bids. So initially just keep to Stayman, transfers, Blackwood, etc, and avoid more complex stuff such as Drury.

 

My general observation from watching BBO is that players are generally too busy in the bidding, often making pointless (sometimes literally) bids. Usually their oppo let them get away with it because they are just as bad, but that wouldn't be the case against strong players. I think that this applies to your original question. 12 points is a reasonable expectation for an opening bid, but this may go down a point or two if the distribution is good and the points are in the long suits.

 

You might also consider subscribing to Bridge Magazine, which is now available on line only.

 

In short, read, read and read some more. And I mean books, not internet sites.

[GrahamJson]

One clarification. I should perhaps have added a "present company accepted" to my first para above. I have noticed that players who contribute to discussions such as this usually give good advice and are far better players than most on BBO.

 

I should also point out that you should ignore player ratings on BBO. Most "Experts" are average at best. There are very few true experts around. You can check their ratings on BBOskill.com, but even that isn't very reliable, although it is an improvement on the self ratings.

[fourdad]

"I am a beginner trying to improve my game by playing in BBO free tournaments and watching other players bid and play."

 

Stop there. I'm afraid that you will not learn how to play well by doing this. The great majority of players on BBO are of very low standard. You will be much better off by reading some decent books on bidding and play. Start with basic texts and work your way up. Also, don't get carried away with conventions. BBO is full of players who know Cappelletti but can't count to thirteen. Don't forget that most conventions are only useful in a regular partnership in which you have discussed details such as follow up bids. So initially just keep to Stayman, transfers, Blackwood, etc, and avoid more complex stuff such as Drury.

 

My general observation from watching BBO is that players are generally too busy in the bidding, often making pointless (sometimes literally) bids. Usually their oppo let them get away with it because they are just as bad, but that wouldn't be the case against strong players. I think that this applies to your original question. 12 points is a reasonable expectation for an opening bid, but this may go down a point or two if the distribution is good and the points are in the long suits.

 

You might also consider subscribing to Bridge Magazine, which is now available on line only.

 

In short, read, read and read some more. And I mean books, not internet sites.

 

I could not agree more!!!

Find a regular partner and work out a system with them and STICK TO IT!!

Do not over complicate it in the beginning with too many conventions. Every time you add a convention, you also TAKE AWAY other bids. You will be learning when you can discern this.

There are groups on BBO that offer mentoring.....join one!!

 

as to your post..........1/2 seat 12HCP and a 5 card suit and 11HCP w/ a 6 card suit and 2.5 OT's will keep you out of trouble most of the time. I would not employ rule of 20 as a beginner as you have no experience that would help know when not to use it.

[Caitlynne]

It is not okay to open with 7 to 10 HCP in a hand featuring a 5 card suit if you are playing Standard American or most "normal" bidding systems.

 

Your big mistake here is assuming that you are at fault. But, in this case, it is your partner who is fouling up the works.

[mycroft]

My standard advice to newer players (and I'm a newer player, even after 20 years and 1300 MPs) is "find one, or possibly two, people who are clearly very good, and whose game you feel comfortable with. Ask them for advice and clarification when people are telling you conflicting things, and listen to them. Ignore everybody else."

 

"Sorry, I still have trouble with my system as it stands, I can't add anything else today" and "Neat idea. I'll ask my mentor about it" are good lines to have in your pack.

 

Part of it is that bridge players are bad in general, especially newer players (Bob Hamman's quote, back in the day: "I'm a bad bridge player. It's just that everyone else is worse"); but a large part of it is that systems hang together, and the right advice for one pair may be hopeless for another. You want to open light? Great - there are definite advantages. But if your partner is going to treat any 12 as a GF, you're in trouble. You want to open sound? Great - there are definite advantages. But the light opener players will steal you blind with their "thrice armed those who get their blow in fust". On the other hand, partner won't be sitting there with a 4432 12 count wondering if this is enough for game *this time*.

 

And this goes more than double for conventions. I have seen newer pairs who play everything that any of their partners told them was a good idea - and had four ways to bid one kind of hand, and zero for others. And they couldn't tell you why you would do one over the other.

[rmnka447]

Interesting, rmnka447, you quoted what I wrote but I don't feel that you replied to it at all. In fact if you moved my quote to below your message, rather than above it, it would make more sense entirely.

I presented 2 hands which satisfy the rule of 20. One is a reasonable opener and one isn't. A new player is unlikely to know the difference between the two hands. So just giving this newer person the rule of 20 as a handy dandy tool to use for openers is a disservice. Without some idea about when or how to use it, the newer player is likely to get into bad bidding habits using it. Then, it's harder to unlearn those habits in order to improve.

 

Certainly, we've all seen hands posted on the BBO forums that were defended vigorously as rule of 20 openers, but in reality weren't close to being openers. The proponents of opening these hands were so imbued with the rule of 20 that getting them to see why they shouldn't open those hands was impossible. Sad to say, but many of these were likely to become and remain part of the group of players defined as hopeless.

 

IMO, it's more important to impart some sound bidding habits to start. As players get to understand how to bid and develop bidding judgment, then adding a supplementary tool like the rule of 20 becomes a good addition to round out their bidding repertoire.

[rmnka447]

"I am a beginner trying to improve my game by playing in BBO free tournaments and watching other players bid and play."

 

Stop there. I'm afraid that you will not learn how to play well by doing this. The great majority of players on BBO are of very low standard. You will be much better off by reading some decent books on bidding and play. Start with basic texts and work your way up. Also, don't get carried away with conventions. BBO is full of players who know Cappelletti but can't count to thirteen. Don't forget that most conventions are only useful in a regular partnership in which you have discussed details such as follow up bids. So initially just keep to Stayman, transfers, Blackwood, etc, and avoid more complex stuff such as Drury.

 

My general observation from watching BBO is that players are generally too busy in the bidding, often making pointless (sometimes literally) bids. Usually their oppo let them get away with it because they are just as bad, but that wouldn't be the case against strong players. I think that this applies to your original question. 12 points is a reasonable expectation for an opening bid, but this may go down a point or two if the distribution is good and the points are in the long suits.

 

You might also consider subscribing to Bridge Magazine, which is now available on line only.

 

In short, read, read and read some more. And I mean books, not internet sites.

Amen!!

 

If you want to become a really good bridge player, you've got to continually read about and study the game.

 

Even if you're a newer player who just hopes to play solid bridge, there's some study necessary to learn the fundamentals of the game. That study should be combined with playing the game, so you can learn when and how to use them.

 

Our district newsletter posted an article by Larry Cohen that essentially said that newer players are better served and improve faster by thoroughly learning the fundamentals of the game than trying to add a lot of gadgets. If I recall correctly, the example he used was the Stayman convention. He asserted that learning the meaning of the various Stayman bidding sequences and understanding when and how to use them would result in a far larger improvement than adding a lot of gimmicks.

 

Recently, there was unit business meeting/buffet between sessions of a sectional tournament. My local partner and I were joined by two women players, one a newer player, and the other a good more experienced player trying to help the newer player improve. She asked what advice I had for the newer player. My answer was to first and foremost learn the fundamentals of bidding and play well so they became almost second nature to execute. Then, you would be a player that would be difficult to play against and start becoming a winner.

[hrothgar]

 

Our district newsletter posted an article by Larry Cohen that essentially said that newer players are better served and improve faster by thoroughly learning the fundamentals of the game than trying to add a lot of gadgets. If I recall correctly, the example he used was the Stayman convention. He asserted that learning the meaning of the various Stayman bidding sequences and understanding when and how to use them would result in a far larger improvement than adding a lot of gimmicks.

 

What makes this comment truly bizarre is that Stayman is a gimmick...