ahydra Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Suppose you have a 2344 weak NT, no stop in hearts. You're playing a strong NT system and it goes 1C/1D (whichever you open)-(2H)-2S-p What is the correct bid here? The reason I'm asking is because partner and I are thinking of switching from weak NT to strong, and it'd be a good idea to get niggles like this sorted out before staring to play it :) I've seen some strong club systems use the cuebid (3H) as a "help me please partner" bid in situations like this, but that could get you awfully high when partner, holding an invitational hand, still has no idea whether you have enough for game or not. Is some sort of artificial 2NT needed? Thanks, ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akwoo Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 If you open 1D on these hands, then a 3C rebid is playable here. You can give up the natural 2N for a good/bad 2N, but there are times when you want to play 2N, and you also give up the possibility of having the natural auction 1D-(2H)-2S-(P)-2N-(P)-3N, which leaks a lot less information than any other auction to 3N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I don't think 3♥ with that hand is practical. You need 3♥ for one-suited hands too strong for a NF 3m rebid, and 3♥ can't cover both I think. 1♦ followed by 3♣ is exactly the reason why most open 1♦ with this hand. Otherwise you just have to swallow a 2nt rebid without a stopper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I would open 1♣, but I am happy rebidding a natural non-forcing 2NT. If you like, you can have an ongoing partner making a checkback bid like 3♥ to show or deny a stop there, so you can have some protection if you are going to 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I am interested to read responses of the T-Walsh players who open 1C on these hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 you can just rebid no trumps. partner can check you have a stop. if partner doubles at the 3 level you have to pass. don't forget that when rho doesn't raise, it often means partner's got values there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyC Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 I would pick between 2NT, 3C, 3H or 3S based on the nature of the hand. Jxx, T9x or similar in hearts would make me lean towards 2NT. HH and some Hx in spade you can make a simple raise to 3S. Chunky holdings in both minors might try 3C. And with a maximum I might stretch with 3H (although this depends a bit on partnership agreements). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 I am interested to read responses of the T-Walsh players who open 1C on these handsIt has been observed by others that T-Walsh and unbalanced diamond openers all loose out on preemption over 1C openings, which tends to get overloaded. If you believe in interference against strong club system, you should do likewise against those. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Suppose you have a 2344 weak NT, no stop in hearts. You're playing a strong NT system and it goes 1C/1D (whichever you open)-(2H)-2S-p What is the correct bid here? The reason I'm asking is because partner and I are thinking of switching from weak NT to strong, and it'd be a good idea to get niggles like this sorted out before staring to play it :) I've seen some strong club systems use the cuebid (3H) as a "help me please partner" bid in situations like this, but that could get you awfully high when partner, holding an invitational hand, still has no idea whether you have enough for game or not. Is some sort of artificial 2NT needed? Thanks, ahydraThis is the main argument people make for oepning 1♦ with 4-4 in the minors. If you open 1♣ you are forced to bid 2NT, relying on that RHO has not raised and preemptor rarely has a solid suit. This scenario is essentially an advertisement for negative free bids at the two level. A negative free bid is not weak but constructive with a good suit, but it is not forcing. Nine times out of ten people make the same suit bid with the same hand whether they play 2♠ forcing here or not.Only the negative free bidders are in a much more comfortable position, while others get too high. The forcing 2♠ frequently hold a hand where they have to choose between overbidding (forcing their partner) or getting stolen blind, if they pass or negative double. When responder has a truly game forcing hand playing negative double he either jumps to 3♠ which is strong with a good six card suit or doubles and bids spades later, which shows a game forcing hand with a 5 card suit or six mediocre spades. The scenario that you might get preempted (LHO jump raises preemptor to a high level) when responder has a game forcing hand almost never happens in practice. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 I play twalsh, and as said above, bid 2NT over a natural forcing-for-one-bid 2♠ from responder, assuming from the OP that it was forcing. However, I am in three minds as to how to handle WJOs here : (1) Natural and forcing is easy, together with a values (penalty orientated) double. However, over a non-jump overcall I like 2♠ to be non-forcing, and if they have a normal WJO in hearts, it is quite likely responder may have a similar hand in spades, and it is a shame to lose that. (2) A negative free bid (NFB) that is non-forcing misses out when responder wishes to double them for penalty. Double for me is a hand with some values and hearts, no long suit, not good enough for 3NT (or prefer to double), where the knowledge that opener also has a couple of hearts means that you do not expect their contract to make. This is not uncommon. (If opener does not have 2+ hearts, he will have 6 clubs and take the double out to 3♣.) If a "GF with 5 spades" hand is forced to double when playing NFB then you miss out on this. (3) In some other circumstances I play transfers over a WJO, starting with double, but not after a strong NT, and as we open 1♣ with a weak NT hand, it should not apply here for the same penalty reason. Thoughts, anyone? I am leaning towards NFB with a forcing 2NT response. A GF hand with a 6 card spade suit can make a forcing 3♠ bid, and a 5 card (maybe 4 card?) spade suit can start 2NT and see how it develops. The "natural 2NT hand" will double for penalty. Is this workable? Any idea of how bidding should go after the forcing 2NT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitlynne Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 The standard rebid is 3C if you opened 1D. If you opened 1C, you now have witnessed why it is generally recommended to open 1D with 4-4 in the minors. (Of course, some players would rebid 2NT without a stopper - and, among these players, some operate in partnerships in which responder is required to check back for a stopper with 3H.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 It has been observed by others that T-Walsh and unbalanced diamond openers all loose out on preemption over 1C openings, which tends to get overloaded. If you believe in interference against strong club system, you should do likewise against those. Which leads to the argument for combining the unbalanced diamond with a strong club so as to combine the disadvantages together. This scenario is essentially an advertisement for negative free bids at the two level. Is it? It seems like an advertisement for playing transfers to me for similar reasons to those of Swedish Club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Is it? It seems like an advertisement for playing transfers to me for similar reasons to those of Swedish Club.Of course there are other mainly artificial possibilities. But playing transfers makes it difficult to stop in 2♠, when responder has say 5 spades and opener two or three unless transfers start with double, in which case I do not know what you do with 4144, Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 I am interested to read responses of the T-Walsh players who open 1C on these handsWe play 2♠ is nonforcing (6 spades) and Transfer Lebensohl (3♦ INV+ with 5+ spades). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iandayre Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 I don't think 3♥ with that hand is practical. You need 3♥ for one-suited hands too strong for a NF 3m rebid, and 3♥ can't cover both I think. 1♦ followed by 3♣ is exactly the reason why most open 1♦ with this hand. Otherwise you just have to swallow a 2nt rebid without a stopper. I couldn't have said it better <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 We play 2♠ is nonforcing (6 spades) and Transfer Lebensohl (3♦ INV+ with 5+ spades).May I ask you to elaborate a little?2♠ = to play2NT = transfer to clubs, to play or better3♣ = transfer to diamonds, to play or better3♦ = transfer to spades, invitational or better3♠ = 6 card GF? If this is it, I could happily take this as a base. It meets my needs, if I extend the 2NT bid to alternatively mean other things, such as the 4 spades takeout, which can then be shown by using the possible rebids over 3♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 May I ask you to elaborate a little?2♠ = to play2NT = transfer to clubs, to play or better3♣ = transfer to diamonds, to play or better3♦ = transfer to spades, invitational or better3♠ = 6 card GF? If this is it, I could happily take this as a base. It meets my needs, if I extend the 2NT bid to alternatively mean other things, such as the 4 spades takeout, which can then be shown by using the possible rebids over 3♦.We basically just treat 1♣-(2♥) exactly the same as 1NT-(2♥), which in our case means 2NT = Clubs INV+ or signoff in diamonds or "slow" 3NT bid (with stopper)3♣ = Diamonds INV+3♦ = Spades INV+3♥ = Short in hearts, typically 31453♠ = Would show the minors over a 1NT opening, here exceptionally it is a transfer to 3NT, typically showing an antipositional stopper such as Axx or JT9x.3NT = "fast" 3NT bid (values but no stopper) Analogously over 1♣-(2♠): 2NT = Clubs INV+ or signoff in diamonds or hearts or "slow" 3NT3♣ = Diamonds INV+3♦ = Hearts INV+3♥ = Transfer to 3NT3♠ = Short in spades3NT = "fast" 3NT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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