EU Brexit thread

[shyams]

I agree with cherdano that "The idea that there is no space to build housing in London has no basis in reality", although I'm not so sure xenophobia plays any role in it. IMO, it is more driven by a NIMBY culture, and a belief in the "castle" ideology.

 

The English have a long-held belief that "an Englishman's home is his castle". What this does is to stultify imagination... if one has families living above, below, to the left, and the right of us, how can one call it a castle? That's why Londoners are always on the lookout for properties that are >100 years old. These properties often have poor insulation, require a fortune to maintain, but command a hefty premium compared to their size and other attributes. "But they have character" I'm told, even though I have always wondered how this character helps in living a happy, healthy life.

 

In summary, the thing stopping Londoners from living in apartments is lack of imagination.

[Trinidad]

But since he [boris Johnson] himself has a very varied ancestry including Turkish which he seems openly proud to acknowledge, and indeed was himself not even born in the UK although he has renounced American citizenship, I really doubt that your conclusions that he is rabidly and inflexibly anti immigrant in spite of what he says, are entirely fair or justified.

I don't think at all that he is anti-immigrant. I think he is an opportunist. If tomorrow the population turns anti-banana, BJ will turn anti-banana at the appropriate moment, regardless of what he thinks himself about bananas or whether it will be good or bad for the UK.

 

Rik

[cherdano]

I agree with cherdano that "The idea that there is no space to build housing in London has no basis in reality", although I'm not so sure xenophobia plays any role in it. IMO, it is more driven by a NIMBY culture, and a belief in the "castle" ideology.

 

What I meant is something different. Nobody likes to think they are xenophobic. So they invent other reasons why England cannot take in any more foreigners. There is no space to house them. (Yes, there is.) The NHS cannot cope with so many immigrants. (In fact, immigrants pay taxes helying to fund NHS. And they help the NHS to find enough staff.) Etc.

[kenberg]

An intrusion from my side of the pond, but some of this has universal application.

 

I am not fond of "xenophobia" as a description. I'll explain. Some years ago I recall a debate in the UK about whether Sharia law should be available in communities that wish it to be. As I understand it, this has been rejected. I think a person can prefer having current UK law over Sharia law without being xenophobic.

 

Now how broadly does this apply? That's a question. If you throw cultures together, there will be cultural clashes. There is no way around this. It's fine to say we should just all get along and respect each other's ways, but what happens is that we can sometimes do this and sometimes not. I have little interest in telling other people how to live and I am not much interested in having them tell me how to live. But people group themselves into think alikes and then it gets tricky.

 

My point is this: There is a continuum rather than a dichotomy about how people can absorb and respond to cultures that they are not familiar with. Branding anyone who has any problem whatsoever with any outside cultural practices as a xenophobe oversimplifies a complex problem. Among other things, it may not be a phobia, it may be a preference.

[Winstonm]

An intrusion from my side of the pond, but some of this has universal application.

 

I am not fond of "xenophobia" as a description. I'll explain. Some years ago I recall a debate in the UK about whether Sharia law should be available in communities that wish it to be. As I understand it, this has been rejected. I think a person can prefer having current UK law over Sharia law without being xenophobic.

 

Now how broadly does this apply? That's a question. If you throw cultures together, there will be cultural clashes. There is no way around this. It's fine to say we should just all get along and respect each other's ways, but what happens is that we can sometimes do this and sometimes not. I have little interest in telling other people how to live and I am not much interested in having them tell me how to live. But people group themselves into think alikes and then it gets tricky.

 

My point is this: There is a continuum rather than a dichotomy about how people can absorb and respond to cultures that they are not familiar with. Branding anyone who has any problem whatsoever with any outside cultural practices as a xenophobe oversimplifies a complex problem. Among other things, it may not be a phobia, it may be a preference.

 

This is a good point. It also touches a fine line. Any phobia, xeno or otherwise, is defined as an irrational fear of something. It seems irrational for me to be in mortal fear of all Muslims living 10,000 miles from my door, but in today's climate is it still irrational to be uncomfortable when two young Muslims move in to the apartment upstairs, for example?

 

In other words, where does rational and irrational cross boundaries?

[Trinidad]

I agree with Ken. When I was studying engineering in the USA, I was absorbed by a group of people from India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Nepal. I have made many friends, some of which I still visit (and visit me) whenever we get the chance, or whenever we create the chance. Half a year after I came, they/we absorbed a girl from Finland. I have often asked myself why I married her and not one of the Indian girls, who were also very nice.

 

I don't think any of these friends would remotely think that I (or my wife for that matter) would be xenophobic, racist or anything like that. (I actually am pretty sure that they think the exact opposite.) Nevertheless, I don't think it was a coincidence that I fell for the white skinned European. (Don't tell me that one data point doesn't prove anything.)

 

Having said all that, I do think that it is xenophobic if you don't want to live next to somebody whom you have never met, for the simple fact that he is from a different culture. (I would gladly exchange one specific neighbor for a refugee. ;) )

 

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

I think the appearance/colour of skin is irrelevant to most people, I suspect new neighbours being unable/unwilling to speak English is a problem for far more.

 

And this is not just a problem here, I always get a much better reaction in Paris if I try to speak French first even if we then lapse back into English than my friend (and habitual travelling companion) who speaks no French.

[Trinidad]

I think the appearance/colour of skin is irrelevant to most people, I suspect new neighbours being unable/unwilling to speak English is a problem for far more.

I don't think that is true at all. Many of the refugees from Syria are highly educated and speak English. Very few of them speak German or Swedish. And for some reason, the Germans and Swedes are more open to receive these people than the Brits. Language can't be it.

 

I do think that there is some truth in what you write, though, but it is quite the other way around. Imagine that the receiving country is sincerely welcoming people: They help them with the language, teach them their culture, show them how society works, and they do that enthusiastically. Or imagine (I guess not that hard) a country that doesn't welcome foreigners, where they have to look for "their own kind" to get an idea of how things work in this new country and where they are not shown their new country's culture. Now, in what country do you think the newcomer will embrace the new culture? In the former (e.g. Sweden) or the latter (plenty of other examples)?

 

If the newcomers are welcomed enthusiastically, then that takes the pressure of the neighbors. Because in that situation, of course, the newcomers want to know everything about their new home, and they will be eager to learn the language and culture as quickly as they can.

 

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

I don't think that is true at all. Many of the refugees from Syria are highly educated and speak English. Very few of them speak German or Swedish. And for some reason, the Germans and Swedes are more open to receive these people than the Brits. Language can't be it.

 

I do think that there is some truth in what you write, though, but it is quite the other way around. Imagine that the receiving country is sincerely welcoming people: They help them with the language, teach them their culture, show them how society works, and they do that enthusiastically. Or imagine (I guess not that hard) a country that doesn't welcome foreigners, where they have to look for "their own kind" to get an idea of how things work in this new country and where they are not shown their new country's culture. Now, in what country do you think the newcomer will embrace the new culture? In the former (e.g. Sweden) or the latter (plenty of other examples)?

 

If the newcomers are welcomed enthusiastically, then that takes the pressure of the neighbors. Because in that situation, of course, the newcomers want to know everything about their new home, and they will be eager to learn the language and culture as quickly as they can.

 

Rik

 

I wasn't necessarily thinking of refugees. I think the habit of some south Asian communities deliberately not teaching their women English (of course their children will learn English at school), causing them to want to cluster in ghettos caused resentment. I think the issue of first generation immigrants has always been there though, I suspect my great grandparents spoke no English when they arrived from Eastern Europe, it was their children that did.

[kenberg]

I wish I knew more.

 

My father's early life was so difficult that he resolutely refused to speak of it. He arrived when he was ten, and except for knowing the ship and where it disembarked, i do not know where he came from. He himself was uncertain of which country he was born in. He came when he was ten, I think people who knew him only casually had no idea he was not born in the US.

 

I am vary much in favor of assimilation. I believe it is difficult. I wish the refugees the best.

[Trinidad]

I wasn't necessarily thinking of refugees. I think the habit of some south Asian communities deliberately not teaching their women English (of course their children will learn English at school), causing them to want to cluster in ghettos caused resentment.

What do you mean that these communities were not teaching the women English? Where were you, the British?

 

Did they get a nice brochure in the mail, in their language, that told them how welcome they were? Did it, among other things, tell them where they could get free lessons in the English language, culture and society?

 

Or were they left on their own, which can obviously only result in ghetto formation, because they can only communicate in their own language?

 

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

What do you mean that these communities were not teaching the women English? Where were you, the British?

 

Did they get a nice brochure in the mail, in their language, that told them how welcome they were? Did it, among other things, tell them where they could get free lessons in the English language, culture and society?

 

Or were they left on their own, which can obviously only result in ghetto formation, because they can only communicate in their own language?

 

Rik

 

Sadly their menfolk actively prevented the women from learning English as a means of control. There are some VERY old style attitudes in these communities, which is why we're seeing the forced marriage and honour killing issues that are occurring in small numbers but disturbingly regularly.

[Trinidad]

Sadly their menfolk actively prevented the women from learning English as a means of control. There are some VERY old style attitudes in these communities, which is why we're seeing the forced marriage and honour killing issues that are occurring in small numbers but disturbingly regularly.

You are presenting the exception as the standard.

 

But please answer my question. Do immigrants into the UK get a nice, comprehensive brochure in their own language, with explanations about the UK and telling them where to get free, government sponsored lessons in English language, culture and society? I know countries that do that and I know countries where that would be unheard of.

 

Rik

[1eyedjack]

It s sometimes not that easy for those born and brought up in UK to access and understand all their rights. The available literature is copious if you know whee to look. But I wwill sa this for the DWP: what they do put out is generally available in at least half a dozen languages including other continents. In that respect they are not discriminated against . Online content needs to catch up mind

[Trinidad]

It s sometimes not that easy for those born and brought up in UK to access and understand all their rights. The available literature is copious if you know whee to look. But I wwill sa this for the DWP: what they do put out is generally available in at least half a dozen languages including other continents. In that respect they are not discriminated against . Online content needs to catch up mind

Half a dozen?!? That is the amount of languages I speak myself! That is the total amount of languages that the Brits can come up with? And that would be considered "welcoming"?

 

And "available"?!? How is a newcomer supposed to find that? If I would send you to Saudi-Arabia and would say that a brochure in English is available, how would that help you? "Availability" is simply not good enough. It needs to be delivered to the people.

 

If you want to be "welcoming", you need to try and look through the eyes of your guest. This is as welcoming as: "Hartstikke leuk dat je langs komt! Ik ben niet thuis. De sleutel ligt onder de deurmat... of in de bloempot (ik weet het niet precies). Dag!!"

 

 

Nice of you to come by! I am not at home. The key is under the door mat... or in the flower pot (I don't really know). Bye!!

 

 

BTW: The UK is by no means the only country that lets newcomers rely on the help of foreigners. Unfortunately, this is rather common. But, in my opinion, if the receiving country lacks a good quality "reach out policy" they are putting themselves on a ticking time bomb.

 

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

There is help available in many languages if asked for, I don't know which languages are always immediately available via leaflets.

 

One member of the bridge community I know does Mauritian creole interpretation so some pretty obscure languages are available in time.

[Cyberyeti]

You are presenting the exception as the standard.

 

 

I wish I was - while honour killings etc are at the extreme end and rare, the extremely conservative outlook of men in those communities and control of their women is very prevalent. I think making sure their women don't have contact with people outside their communities and don't learn English is more common than you think. Chaperoning of women is still very much a thing in these communities.

[Trinidad]

There is help available in many languages if asked for.

How do they know whom to ask? Or where to go?

 

You are assuming that it is entirely natural for people to go to city hall / the police / the tax office / post office (to pick a few possibilities) to enroll for a nice free "How to... in England" course. Fact is that I don't know where I would have to go in the UK. And I live in the country next door and have a fair amount of international experience! (I could figure it out easily enough, because I speak the language, but that would be cheating.)

 

Rik

[1eyedjack]

Don't read into my quote of "half a dozen" to mean "6". I meant a handful or bunch. And I think that they concentrated on the most common immigrant languages. Possibly favouring non-european based as being less likely to have any grounding in English, especially among the uneducated and most vulnerable. They would typically include Urdu, Hindi , Arabic, Mandarin. That covers a fairly large swathe of the non English speaking world and that list is not exhaustive.

[Zelandakh]

How do they know whom to ask? Or where to go?

I had no information on where to go in Germany either but a quick trip to the local language school told me everything I needed to know. I imagine it is similar in the UK.

[onoway]

The belief in such things as "honor " killings and such unfortunately don't get dropped at the dockside or tarmac when people disembark in a new country. We have had those occur in Canada too, not often, but even once is too many. The first one I am aware of was some years ago now and there was total national outrage when the lawyer tried to defend the parents by using the freedom of religious belief to get them off. Eventually, it was not a successful defense.

 

As far as language is concerned,in Canada we have quite a few French Canadians, born and bred, who speak no English and even more English speaking 2nd, 3rd, 4rth generation Canadians who speak no French. It isn't always just a matter of accessibility nor is it always a matter of being a means of controlling family members.

 

Otoh I knew a graduate student who was the daughter of Lithuanian immigrants and she told me that English was not allowed to be spoken in the home, her mother spoke virtually no English at all, her father only when he had to, although he was fluent. Everything she told me reflected a caring but extremely controlling father whose every wish or word was law in the house. She sometimes expressed concern for her mother's isolation, not because of any sort of abuse,which was never even hinted at, but from loneliness.

 

And then there is simply the matter of English being a slippery and difficult language. On top of the stress of being uprooted into a different country and climate and culture, it is often tempting to flee into the company of people who know and understand where you came from, where it isn't such hard work to communicate. It might be easy for some to learn new languages at any age, for others, not so much.

 

Certainly when I was living and trying to learn Spanish in Mexico, every once in a while it was such a relief to go to the embassy library and read and speak English for a while. And Spanish is an easy language and I was in Mexico by choice, I could leave anytime and come home.It's just not easy for immigrants.

[Trinidad]

I had no information on where to go in Germany either but a quick trip to the local language school told me everything I needed to know. I imagine it is similar in the UK.

How did you find the local language school? Let me venture a guess... A Google search performed in ... English.

 

Now, isn't that convenient? In your own language and by your favorite medium.

 

Rik

[Trinidad]

Otoh I knew a graduate student who was the daughter of Lithuanian immigrants and she told me that English was not allowed to be spoken in the home, her mother spoke virtually no English at all, her father only when he had to. Such a waste, so sad to move to a new country and then limit yourself and your family in such a profound way.

That doesn't mean much. My kids are, in principle, not allowed to speak Dutch (the language of the country where we live) at home. My wife and I only speak English at home. Nevertheless, the whole family is fluent in Dutch.

 

Rik

[1eyedjack]

It may be appropriate to distinguish between refugees and other migrants. As far as I know, refugees are assisted with their asylum applications and successful applicants then receive further guidance. Other migrants have a greater burden of personal responsibility to seek out information that may not be thrust "in yer face". And they generally have well hewn unofficial channels from established communities made up of their own nationals.

[Zelandakh]

How did you find the local language school? Let me venture a guess... A Google search performed in ... English.

 

Now, isn't that convenient? In your own language and by your favorite medium.

Actually I had a large advantage here in that I knew someone in the country already and they speak English. And you are right, it would have been more difficult if I had had not a word of German, known noone, had no access to a computer or smartphone and not had the forethought or possibility to look it up before arriving. In that case I might have tried the local town hall. One has to register there anyway upon arriving in the country.