EU Brexit thread

[fromageGB]

Please read and understand my post before calling me an idiot, I understood yours perfectly and nothing I said indicated I hadn't.

Please accept my most sincere apologies. I did not mean idiot in that way. Another of those cases where words written without intonation can be misconstrued - I should be more careful.

[fromageGB]

I was brought up with both systems so am equally happy with either. I think we've had metrication for long enough that the people completely wedded to imperial measures are now few and far between, but the ability to weigh stuff in either set of measures if people want is probably the only old one that would see any use (other than possibly Fahrenheit).

My mother will never get to grips with Celcius, but Fahrenheit will die a natural death. (And before you complain, I am sure he is dead already.)

 

The problem we now have is not units of temperature, nor mass/weight, but of length. We have all motorways in this country marked with blue 100m posts along the edges, and you can read your distance from a sometimes nominal starting point, yet all "distance to go" signs are in miles. Recently they seem to have equipped all motorways with some crazy distance marker big signs, so alongside the 35.7 Km blue post there will be a huge sign that says something weird like "35/7 C" as if they can't divide, or prefer fractions to decimals. This must have cost a lot of money and it can be assumed there is a purpose, but are we really intending to replace miles with Km?

 

Incidentally, these funny new signs are roughly every 500m, but you will see signs in a sequence like 3/7B, 4/2B, 4/7B, 5/7B, 6/1B, 6/6B, with irregular jumps in the intervals. I guess they are there for people who drive too fast to read the blue posts, but why not just have integers as they do other countries?

 

The other big anomaly is that we buy petrol in litres but the computer counters in cars give inverse consumption in miles per gallon. I reckon this mess will need a bigger cleanup than the trade treaties.

[Cyberyeti]

The temperature thing is odd. I think in both depending on what sort of temperature, on a cold day, low single figures Celsius, but once the day is warm, it's 70 not 21. No idea why.

[Trinidad]

?!?

 

So, you want to go back to your pounds, ounces and pints... And this improves trade with the world outside the EU in what way?

 

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

?!?

 

So, you want to go back to your pounds, ounces and pints... And this improves trade with the world outside the EU in what way?

 

Rik

 

Not for trade, although some bits of the world still use them (or different versions of them).

 

But some people would welcome the ability to use them at home. Certainly prosecuting anybody who had the temerity to sell in pounds or Kg as the customer preferred was a nonsense and cost the EU a lot of popularity at the time.

[shyams]

Certainly prosecuting anybody who had the temerity to sell in pounds or Kg as the customer preferred was a nonsense and cost the EU a lot of popularity at the time.

I believe the EU never expressed a desire for in-country enforcement/prosecution for non-use of metric. Obviously, cross-country trade was required to operate on a metric system for "harmonisation" purposes.

 

The idea of prosecuting anybody was a UK Govt idea (probably with the hope that fear of prosecution will expedite adoption of metric). When there was a backlash in the media, the UK Govt spinelessly pointed in the direction of the EU saying "not me, Guv".

[gordontd]

Not for trade, although some bits of the world still use them (or different versions of them).

 

But some people would welcome the ability to use them at home. Certainly prosecuting anybody who had the temerity to sell in pounds or Kg as the customer preferred was a nonsense and cost the EU a lot of popularity at the time.

How many prosecutions were there?

[1eyedjack]

How many prosecutions were there?

What would this statistic mean? I don't think that this law was widely flouted. A 100% compliance would have resulted in no prosecutions at all. Which would demonstrate nothing more than that we have a law abiding population. But compliance did nothing to quell resentment.

[Cyberyeti]

How many prosecutions were there?

 

Not many, most people complied. There were I believe 6 originally, may have been more later.

[Trinidad]

Not for trade, although some bits of the world still use them (or different versions of them).

LOL. So you want to trade with different versions of the pound?

 

How difficult is it to trade in European pounds?

But some people would welcome the ability to use them at home. Certainly prosecuting anybody who had the temerity to sell in pounds or Kg as the customer preferred was a nonsense and cost the EU a lot of popularity at the time.

Don't blame the EU for something that the Brits are responsible for themselves.

 

In many countries of the EU, the pounds and ounces are still in use, next to the kg. You can go to any butcher in France and order "une livre de porc" and "une livre" is what you are going to get. (Remember that the kg was "invented" in France.) The same is true in the Netherlands where you can ask for "een pond tomaten" or in Germany where you can ask for "ein Pfund" and you will get what you asked for. No prosecutions, quite the opposite: kids in school learn that "een pond" is 500 g (whereas long ago it was "about 480 g").

 

If you look around in Dutch stores (in 2016, to make sure you understand), you will see that in most of them the produce is priced per... 500 g (and not per kg). Now, who would make a problem out of that? Certainly not the EU.

 

Different countries still have their own units. To give another example: In Sweden, the "mil" ("Swedish mile") is still used everywhere, also by the government. If you want to deduct travel expenses from your taxes, you have to report the distances in "mil" to the government and you can deduct x "crowns per mil". How long is a Swedish "mil", you ask? It is 10 km. Do you really think that it is exactly 10 km by coincidence or do you think that it was redefined to match 10 km at some point?

 

If only the Brits would approach this a little more pragmatic and a little less stubborn... But, hey, that would make them European. :P

 

Rik

[Zelandakh]

I believe the EU never expressed a desire for in-country enforcement/prosecution for non-use of metric.

Do you have some evidence to support this? The relevant wiki pages seem to suggest a different story.

[Cyberyeti]

LOL. So you want to trade with different versions of the pound?

 

How difficult is it to trade in European pounds?

 

Don't blame the EU for something that the Brits are responsible for themselves.

 

 

I was thinking of the US where the US fluid measures don't match ours although they have the same names.

 

My understanding was that you could display the price only in metric measures, and weigh in those only, pricing per 450g you could probably get away with as pseudo pounds.

 

Our pet hate is the French ignoring regulations that don't suit them, so we tend to interpret them as written.

[gordontd]

 

My understanding was that you could display the price only in metric measures, and weigh in those only, pricing per 450g you could probably get away with as pseudo pounds.

 

My understanding is that this was a myth promoted by certain newspapers and that the reality is that you were allowed to price and weigh things in imperial as long as the metric equivalents were more prominent. The prosecutions you mentioned earlier were for using non-compliant scales, not for weighing in pounds.

[Zelandakh]

My understanding is that this was a myth promoted by certain newspapers and that the reality is that you were allowed to price and weigh things in imperial as long as the metric equivalents were more prominent. The prosecutions you mentioned earlier were for using non-compliant scales, not for weighing in pounds.

Again, do you have evidence to support this? Again, from the wiki pages:

The use of "supplementary indications" or alternative units (generally the traditional imperial units formerly used) was originally to have been permitted for only a limited period. However, that period had to be extended a number of times due to public resistance, until in 2009 the requirement to ultimately cease use of traditional units alongside metric units was finally removed.

 

This seems to indicate that while it was always allowed to display the old units, it was EU policy for these to be completely phased out and only the strength of public opinion avoided this from happening. Naturally wiki is not necessarily the most trustworthy source (particularly as the passage is not referenced) so I am interested if you have a more reliable one that contradicts this.

[gordontd]

Again, do you have evidence to support this? Again, from the wiki pages:

 

 

This seems to indicate that while it was always allowed to display the old units, it was EU policy for these to be completely phased out and only the strength of public opinion avoided this from happening. Naturally wiki is not necessarily the most trustworthy source (particularly as the passage is not referenced) so I am interested if you have a more reliable one that contradicts this.

 

This was my source.

 

Actually, looking at your source a bit more carefully, I don't see any contradiction between the two.

[Zelandakh]

This was my source.

 

Actually, looking at your source a bit more carefully, I don't see any contradiction between the two.

Indeed, it does look to be telling the same story. However the linked article makes it clear that goods need to be weighed on a metric scales, which looks to be the point CY was making. In other words, we are probably all agreeing here, just using slightly different language.

[1eyedjack]

There is an interesting precedent, in the form of clause 35 of Magna Carta. 1215 rather predates the EU, of course (although I suppose you could say that the French were involved), as does its repeal in 1948

[gordontd]

Indeed, it does look to be telling the same story. However the linked article makes it clear that goods need to be weighed on a metric scales, which looks to be the point CY was making. In other words, we are probably all agreeing here, just using slightly different language.

My point was that certain sources have given the impression that it is illegal for someone to go into a shop, ask for a pound of something and be served with it. Furthermore the suggestion has been made that shop-keepers have been successfully prosecuted for this. As far as I can see, neither of these thing is true: it's permitted to supply in imperial quantities as long as it's from an approved scale, with metric quantities shown at least as prominently as the imperial ones; and those prosecutions that there have been were for using scales that were not approved.

[Zelandakh]

As you will know, transaction law often does not work the way you think it does. When I ask for a pound of pork, it does not actually have any direct bearing on the transaction. Indeed, even when the butcher weighs out the meat, no transaction has been started. First when we get to the cashier is the offer made. In this case, although I asked for a pound of pork, the transaction is actually for 454g of pork at some agreed price consistent with those being displayed. So I can order a pound but cannot buy a pound per se, only the equivalent.

 

Notice that I can also order a pound of pork here in Germany. In that case I will receive 500g rather than 454g. If that is unacceptable then I need to say something prior to handing over the cash - it is implied that the offer of 500g for x€ is agreed at the time of the transaction. So it is perhaps a matter of semantics but the law is what it is. You are not allowed to buy by the pound but you can order a pound and buy by the 454g, or 500g. Most prosecutions have been because of improper scales but a few have been for traders that have sold by the pound without reference to metric measurements. In that case they would have been breaking the law even if the scales used were able to measure metric weights so it would be incorrect to say that the scale was the cause of the prosecution.

[gordontd]

Most prosecutions have been because of improper scales but a few have been for traders that have sold by the pound without reference to metric measurements. In that case they would have been breaking the law even if the scales used were able to measure metric weights so it would be incorrect to say that the scale was the cause of the prosecution.

Now it's my turn to ask for your source! :)

[fromageGB]

Asking for a pound of pork in Germany and getting 500g sounds like the wurst of both worlds.

[Zelandakh]

Now it's my turn to ask for your source! :)

The most famous case is this one, which took place very early on after the changeover:

Link 1

Link 2

 

Note this quote from the first one:

It is legal for customers to ask for goods by the pound and to know what goods cost by the pound, but the trader has to deal in kilogrammes when weighing goods for sale.

Similarly this link, which provides a similar text when referring to the same case:

A customer is allowed to ask for loose goods by the pound but the shopkeeper is required to weigh the goods using metric scales.

Now it is true that the charge brought in this case was for an illegal weighing machine. That is a legal technicality and is typically the charge even if the weighing machine itself would be legal if the transaction had been done in metric. If the metric price is not displayed then it is not legal irrespective of whether the scales are metric or not. Where a different charge is specifically brought are cases in which no measure is given. That applies, for example, to (one of) the last metric martyr(s), Janet Devers, who sold peppers by the bowl and was prosecuted for this in addition to the standard illegal scales charges.

 

 

Asking for a pound of pork in Germany and getting 500g sounds like the wurst of both worlds.

Groan, you spider! :P

[cherdano]

Asking for a pound of pork in Germany and getting 500g sounds like the wurst of both worlds.

Better than getting British fromage.

[kenberg]

I have not been following this thread much since the vote, but I think if I went to the local meat counter and asked for 700 mg of pork

[Added: oops, I meant 700 gm. But 700 mg would also get a blank stare. Understandably.]

I would be met with, at best, a blank stare. Asking for 10 ounces is iffy. Asking for 0.625 pounds would be absurd, since I really don't care whether I get 0.628 or even 0.682 pounds.

 

Some years back I was driving in Canada, mentally converting kilometer per hour speed limits to miles per hour. After a couple of days of this I suddenly noticed some little blue numbers on the dashboard arranged concentrically with the black mph numbers. And there seemed to be a pattern to them!

 

I hope you all sort this out. I am pretty sure we are stuck with feet and inches until the cows come home, and home is many rods away.

[mgoetze]

Notice that I can also order a pound of pork here in Germany. In that case I will receive 500g rather than 454g.

Really... all the butchers I have ever been to will generously cut you somewhere between 550g and 600g and ask "is that alright?" :P