EU Brexit thread

[Vampyr]

What is the "black legend"?

[gwnn]

I had the same question a few hours ago but luckily I remembered there was a free website out there where you can look up this sort of thing and usually get accurate answers including related reading material.

[Cyberyeti]

You may not know that the UK has a visa system for residential entry from countries other than the EU. People are accepted if they have skills deemed to be in demand, and are not carrying Kalashnikovs under their burkas. By EU law, anyone from the EU can choose to come to live in this country, whether there is work for them or not. If the existing visa rules were applied to them, three quarters of them would be refused, according to the Oxford University’s Migration Observatory Study commissioned by the Financial Times. Very many are coming in, and the numbers are putting pressure on services that are already under duress. If the population increases, our population density increases. It is already unpleasantly high in many areas.

 

And of course they come in to the areas of maximum pressure because that's where the work is.

[onoway]

People who have a strong desire to live have seldom found arbitrary & artificial national boundaries to be very compelling if that's what's seen as what's preventing them from finding safety. This may only be the first wave of changes that climate change and old habits of interfering with other countries are going to generate, and is unlikely to change much whether Britain stays in the EU or not.

 

Most people generally prefer to stay in their own countries IF they can see any future in it. Visiting is one thing, moving quite another. I've seldom met anyone who just loves moving at all, but especially to a place they don't speak the language well ( or at all), don't understand the food, music or customs and are often treated in ways they don't understand, sometimes with malice but often not. Such little things.. On a back road in Mexico I once said beeped "shave and a haircut" rhythm on the car horn to say thank you to a truck driver who had pulled over to the side of the road to let me pass. Two Mexican passengers both instantly went into hysterical laughter, telling me that I'd better not stop for at least another 20 miles for any reason whatsoever. Apparently a cheerful thanks! in Canada is accusing someone of doing unspeakable things with his mother in parts of Mexico.

[Zelandakh]

This may only be the first wave of changes that climate change and old habits of interfering with other countries are going to generate, and is unlikely to change much whether Britain stays in the EU or not.

The Syrian refugee crisis is certainly down to climate change. Who knows where it will crop up next... :unsure:

[Vampyr]

I had the same question a few hours ago but luckily I remembered there was a free website out there where you can look up this sort of thing and usually get accurate answers including related reading material.

 

OK, found a short description. It is funny.

[Al_U_Card]

♫♪Land. Give me land. Lots of land....don't fence me in...♪♫

 

Spain, France, England. All interested in land. (British land values and ownership are a classic case of too little, too much interest in acquiring etc.)

 

Gold, women etc. were secondary to the availability of land, ESPECIALLY as native americans had a very poor notion about land ownership, as they were transients and not interested in land that had provided what was available. Europeans understood fences, ownership and land rights.

 

France and Spain colonized around the world. England instituted genocide in BNA,(residential schools anyone?) and only left the French in Lower Canada "free" to pursue their heritage because they needed them to continue to steal land from the natives. The Americans continued the parade with Manifest Destiny and the "pacification" (read elimination) of all native peoples.

 

Human existence is a culture war that heats up into genocide when crowding occurs. So what else is new?

[Vampyr]

 

Gold, women etc. were secondary to the availability of land, ESPECIALLY as native americans had a very poor notion about land ownership, as they were transients and not interested in land that had provided what was available. Europeans understood fences, ownership and land rights.

 

 

The native Americans had a poor notion about land ownership? It is a completely artificial concept.

[shyams]

You may not know that the UK has a visa system for residential entry from countries other than the EU. People are accepted if they have skills deemed to be in demand, and are not carrying Kalashnikovs under their burkas. By EU law, anyone from the EU can choose to come to live in this country, whether there is work for them or not. If the existing visa rules were applied to them, three quarters of them would be refused, according to the Oxford University’s Migration Observatory Study commissioned by the Financial Times. Very many are coming in, and the numbers are putting pressure on services that are already under duress. If the population increases, our population density increases. It is already unpleasantly high in many areas.

 

If the existing visa rules were applied to retiree Brits living in southern Spain, how many of them will be eligible? I wonder, does the UK Govt pay for their medical expenses incurred in Spain?

 

In any case, I concluded a long time ago that I favour the UK remaining inside the EU. Nothing will make me change my view....

[fromageGB]

The Syrian refugee crisis is certainly down to climate change. Who knows where it will crop up next... :unsure:

Climate change seems to be triggered by USA foreign policy. The influx of migrants to Europe from North Africa this year is already progressing at a higher rate than it was last year. Who shall we shoot up next?

 

No wonder O'Barmy does not agree with climate change mitigation.

[Al_U_Card]

The native Americans had a poor notion about land ownership? It is a completely artificial concept.

Well, they certainly had definite concepts about land occupation, tribal (each Nation) delineations and the ability to raid other nation's encampments. (They are human after all.) Not having a notion about "owning" what is (relatively) free is, in itself, a concept. ;)

[Al_U_Card]

Climate change seems to be triggered by USA foreign policy. The influx of migrants to Europe from North Africa this year is already progressing at a higher rate than it was last year. Who shall we shoot up next?

 

No wonder O'Barmy does not agree with climate change mitigation.

A much more valid estimation, indeed. Syria is in a typical drought and overall, the Middle East is having more or less typical weather. The expenditures on weapons reap greater profits but the never-ending need for tax revenues does require "valid" justifications....like being able to change the weather.

[1eyedjack]

Oh dear, Boris Johnson has just played the Hitler card and invoked Godwin's Law. Guess that means he has lost, then.

[gordontd]

Oh dear, Boris Johnson has just played the Hitler card and invoked Godwin's Law. Guess that means he has lost, then.

Seems a reasonable conclusion to having Obama back staying and Trump back leaving.

[Zelandakh]

Apparently the European establishment want Britain to stay and the European people support our leaving. Well based on the ESC results anyway! :)

[fromageGB]

Oh dear, Boris Johnson has just played the Hitler card and invoked Godwin's Law. Guess that means he has lost, then.

The biggest mistake Johnson and Gove have made is refusing to share a table with Farage. The second biggest is lack of planning.

[StevenG]

The biggest mistake Johnson and Gove have made is refusing to share a table with Farage.

Why? They need a broad church. It's hard enough for those of us who will be voting out from a lettish-wing position to stomach being in the same camp as Johnson, Gove, Grayling, Duncan Smith, Fox, etc.. Expecting us to accept Farage as well is one step too far.

[Al_U_Card]

Here in Canada, we live like the flea on the elephant's back. Trade/immigration etc. relations are generally good while a modicum of sovereignty is exercised. Clearly, were we to become a "risk" it would be another kettle of fish. NAFTA et al are all attempts to satisfy local concerns about inequality (At a bigger or smaller scale depending on whether it is softwood "subsidies" or car manufacturing deals. (Auto-pact of bye-gone days.))

 

The only issue of significance AFAICS is that of elective, representative democracy. If, within a union, you have no say and little recourse for amendment or adjudication, then that union will not satisfy at least one party. Can unelected officials impose laws on GB? Can GB opt out or otherwise unilaterally avoid such situations? If not, then are they indeed a nation (of laws and people)?

[fromageGB]

Can unelected officials impose laws on GB? Can GB opt out or otherwise unilaterally avoid such situations?

Yes. No.

But there are many more issues of significance than that, although that is one of the biggest.

[fromageGB]

Why? They need a broad church. It's hard enough for those of us who will be voting out from a lettish-wing position to stomach being in the same camp as Johnson, Gove, Grayling, Duncan Smith, Fox, etc.. Expecting us to accept Farage as well is one step too far.

Those of us voting out from a centrist position have to tolerate left-wingers such as Ian Duncan Smith, but I see your point. However, UKIP has been advocating leave for a long time, it is the party's sole objective, and a coordinated approach with input from all concerned could have provided a very strong case for Brexit. As it is, it seems lacklustre, piecemeal, and ill-prepared.

 

Something else that disappoints me is Corbyn's bowing to the MPs rather than standing up for his principles. He does have principles, and was elected by the people for them. It is a shame.

[Zelandakh]

Those of us voting out from a centrist position have to tolerate left-wingers such as Ian Duncan Smith

Is this some new definition of centrist meaning "somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan"?

[Vampyr]

Something else that disappoints me is Corbyn's bowing to the MPs rather than standing up for his principles. He does have principles, and was elected by the people for them. It is a shame.

 

By the people? You mean the Labour MPs, the trade unions and those who have paid to be members of the Labour Party? I think that Corbyn is unelectable in a general election, and the party leadership election is too full of true believers.

 

You know, a good alternative to Brezit might be a new provision that net contributors to the EU can opt out of whatever the hell they please. It seems only fair.

[Al_U_Card]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

[1eyedjack]

In the last couple of days of political posturing our (UK) chancellor of the exchequer, George Osborne, warns the UK electorate that a Brexit vote would cause a downturn in house prices.

 

For context, Osborne is part of the Bremain camp, and we should assume that his public comments are designed to bolster support for his political agenda, ie to persuade the electorate, on balance, to waver in favour of voting to remain in EU.

 

I am having a bit of difficulty following the logic. There may be some doubt about whether a (significant) downturn would indeed materialise. But let us assume for now that the assessment is accurate.

 

Instinctively I would have thought that a one-off correction in the housing market should not have a significant impact on voting intentions, but if it does then there are certainly a proportion of voters who would welcome such a development.

 

There are certainly some who would be upset by a downturn:

 

The construction industry

Those expecting to inherit their shortly-to-be-deceased parents' estates

Those using the property market as an investment opportunity relying on capital appreciation for their return, including but not restricted to the buy-to-let market

Possibly a sundry smattering of others.

 

On the other side of the coin there are those looking to buy - a very substantial subset of the population.

 

On the edge of the coin are those already with owned properties, possibly mortgaged, who may be minded to move properties. If moving up the property chain, then they should be encouraged by a downturn in prices. If moving to smaller properties, ie those moving into retirement seeking to downsize and realise their (surplus) capital, would be discouraged.

 

But on the whole, I would guess that with one vote per person, those currently having problems getting on the housing ladder, *and* their parents, make up such a slice of the total cake that were I Osborne I might have been inclined to keep quiet about this particular statistic.

[Zelandakh]

Portillo also mentioned this on the weekly BBC politics show, Jack. But the official position of the Leave campaign is to deny that any such price change would occur.