EU Brexit thread

[hrothgar]

We often worry about voter suppression efforts here, and in fact there are good historical reasons for this concern. But there are times when it sounds as if people really can't much be bothered with any advance preparation at all. It's "Hey, what shall we do? Go to a movie? Go out for a beer? Oh, I hear there is an election, let's go do that." Maybe it would be ok to suppress that vote. It's true that I am often, or make that usually, not well prepared to vote on who should be the judge of the orphan's court. But I know who is running for the Senate.

 

FWIW, here's an example of the type of voter literacy tests that were used in the US

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/06/28/voting_rights_and_the_supreme_court_the_impossible_literacy_test_louisiana.html

 

Note: A single wong answer meant that you were disqualified from voting.

Also note that these tests were administered in highly discriminatory ways

[onoway]

It's difficult to know much about it from outside the country but the Guardian keeps running stories about the growing number of homeless in the UK and how subsidized housing is being sold and either torn down or renovated for high end flats or houses, and the former tenants are left to fend for themselves. Indeed someone who used to play a lot on BBO told me he and his son were being evicted for that very reason. He had looked for months for something that they could manage to afford that was still anywhere within range of where they both worked, totally without success, and was expecting to be thrown onto the street in January. Indeed I have not seen or heard from him since December. He and his son both had some issues..he suffered from ptsd and his son had some physical issues; both were working but at low paying jobs, probably more typically than most of the people in this forum or their colleagues. What he experienced seems to agree with the articles in the Guardian.

 

In the meantime, where are all the immigrants to find jobs and affordable housing if it isn't there for the people already there, who already, for example, speak english and know how to get around in the culture? Is it really true that there are that many jobs that British won't do, that they'd rather be on the street? This is not to promote an anti-immigration theme...where I live if it wasn't for the immigrants the place would grind to a halt because people DON"T want to work at any but the highest paying jobs, but the bottom line is that they are in no danger of being tossed into the street because of it. It is an honestly bewildered question.

 

To be fair,and this is undoubtedly true in Britain as well as the US and Canada, the lowest paying jobs hardly pay the rent, much less rent plus food, heat, clothes, transportation etc. so perhaps they have a point. As long as someone will work at the fast food, gas service station, Walmart, Amazon etc. jobs for less than it costs to live, nothing will change. Thus you get the stories of 20 immigrants living in a 2 bedroom apartment, they do fine, other than that, because if they are all working, they can afford to live if they live together. That isn't likely to be something that people from perhaps a more reserved society, raised in a culture that trains them to believe they ought to be able to live comfortably in a one family house, is willing or perhaps even capable of choosing to do.

 

When people talk about racism in Britain, it makes me sad, as if you read about WW2, many of the soldiers sent from the US to Britain were astonished at the LACK of racism, and the Brit's refusal to accept the racist structure that went with the U.S. troops. Not a change for the better.

 

Add to the mix that many of the multinational companies are transitioning their low paying jobs to no jobs at all through mechanization. Several fast food chains are experimenting with changing over to robots, grocery stores are increasingly using mechanized checkouts, Amazon is also said to be experimenting with deliveries made by drones as well as robots in their warehouses, so even those low level jobs will soon disappear. Seems to me that this is all going to lead to a hopelessness, anger and despair, and that is often at the real base of racism. If people are afraid that what they have is going to be taken from them they are obviously going to be angry and look for a target; immigrants are an easy one.

 

In the meantime, Apple, Starbucks and others are reported to be paying no taxes whatever so that seems fairly business friendly to me.

 

I really think that the focus on catering to big business has to change in favor of little businesses or we are all - not just in Britain - going to be in a whole world of hurt fairly soon. The results of the increasing concentration of money and power in a few hands is not working out well at all. It's very very difficult to see this happening with the EU set up as it is apparently working now, certainly it appears generally to be mightilly accommodating to big business. Whether Britain would be better off in or out possibly depends somewhat on whether their government continues the present path or starts looking after its people, and whether that's even a choice if they stay in the EU. Isis may only be the beginning...

[Zelandakh]

I read that if UK gets out we can finally close the border and mitigate the plundering Gibraltar is doing to Cadiz. If that is true, it is very wellcome.

And we can close our waters and kick the Spanish fishermen out. How do you think going back to the old days of strained relations is a positive thing?

[mike777]

It's difficult to know much about it from outside the country but the Guardian keeps running stories about the growing number of homeless in the UK and how subsidized housing is being sold and either torn down or renovated for high end flats or houses, and the former tenants are left to fend for themselves. Indeed someone who used to play a lot on BBO told me he and his son were being evicted for that very reason. He had looked for months for something that they could manage to afford that was still anywhere within range of where they both worked, totally without success, and was expecting to be thrown onto the street in January. Indeed I have not seen or heard from him since December. He and his son both had some issues..he suffered from ptsd and his son had some physical issues; both were working but at low paying jobs, probably more typically than most of the people in this forum or their colleagues. What he experienced seems to agree with the articles in the Guardian.

 

In the meantime, where are all the immigrants to find jobs and affordable housing if it isn't there for the people already there, who already, for example, speak english and know how to get around in the culture? Is it really true that there are that many jobs that British won't do, that they'd rather be on the street? This is not to promote an anti-immigration theme...where I live if it wasn't for the immigrants the place would grind to a halt because people DON"T want to work at any but the highest paying jobs, but the bottom line is that they are in no danger of being tossed into the street because of it. It is an honestly bewildered question.

 

To be fair,and this is undoubtedly true in Britain as well as the US and Canada, the lowest paying jobs hardly pay the rent, much less rent plus food, heat, clothes, transportation etc. so perhaps they have a point. As long as someone will work at the fast food, gas service station, Walmart, Amazon etc. jobs for less than it costs to live, nothing will change. Thus you get the stories of 20 immigrants living in a 2 bedroom apartment, they do fine, other than that, because if they are all working, they can afford to live if they live together. That isn't likely to be something that people from perhaps a more reserved society, raised in a culture that trains them to believe they ought to be able to live comfortably in a one family house, is willing or perhaps even capable of choosing to do.

 

When people talk about racism in Britain, it makes me sad, as if you read about WW2, many of the soldiers sent from the US to Britain were astonished at the LACK of racism, and the Brit's refusal to accept the racist structure that went with the U.S. troops. Not a change for the better.

 

Add to the mix that many of the multinational companies are transitioning their low paying jobs to no jobs at all through mechanization. Several fast food chains are experimenting with changing over to robots, grocery stores are increasingly using mechanized checkouts, Amazon is also said to be experimenting with deliveries made by drones as well as robots in their warehouses, so even those low level jobs will soon disappear. Seems to me that this is all going to lead to a hopelessness, anger and despair, and that is often at the real base of racism. If people are afraid that what they have is going to be taken from them they are obviously going to be angry and look for a target; immigrants are an easy one.

 

In the meantime, Apple, Starbucks and others are reported to be paying no taxes whatever so that seems fairly business friendly to me.

 

I really think that the focus on catering to big business has to change in favor of little businesses or we are all - not just in Britain - going to be in a whole world of hurt fairly soon. The results of the increasing concentration of money and power in a few hands is not working out well at all. It's very very difficult to see this happening with the EU set up as it is apparently working now, certainly it appears generally to be mightilly accommodating to big business. Whether Britain would be better off in or out possibly depends somewhat on whether their government continues the present path or starts looking after its people, and whether that's even a choice if they stay in the EU. Isis may only be the beginning...

 

 

 

OK so what solutions do you propose. You have mentioned the problems, what policies do you recommend?

 

 

Here in the USA they are suggesting raising wages, the results are large companies such as Walmart and Bank of America are laying off thousands and thousands of workers. Machines are replacing people as fast as they can train them up. Even in bridge robots are replacing players.

 

What do you suggest as a solution?

[PassedOut]

OK so what solutions do you propose. You have mentioned the problems, what policies do you recommend?

Or, you could weigh in on what you recommend. I'm interested.

[mike777]

Or, you could weigh in on what you recommend. I'm interested.

 

 

as far as BREXIT? I don't know. It seems decades ago large parts of Europe choose to turn itself into a large and beautiful museum, an old very pretty museum.

[Fluffy]

And we can close our waters and kick the Spanish fishermen out. How do you think going back to the old days of strained relations is a positive thing?

 

The thing is: you have no waters, on the treaty from centuries ago only the land is given. But anyway, we gotta stop Gibraltar people and enterprises getting rich due to lack of taxes and evasion while the others are getting poorer and poorer.

[PassedOut]

as far as BREXIT? I don't know. It seems decades ago large parts of Europe choose to turn itself into a large and beautiful museum, an old very pretty museum.

I love traveling in Europe and talking with friends and relatives there, and your impression doesn't square with mine. Yes, there are beautiful museums and cathedrals, but that's not a bad thing...

[mike777]

The thing is: you have no waters, on the treaty from centuries ago only the land is given. But anyway, we gotta stop Gibraltar people and enterprises getting rich due to lack of taxes and evasion while the others are getting poorer and poorer.

 

The Gibraltar people are getting rich due to lack of taxes, evasion and stealing fish and they are making everyone else poor.

yes, this does seem to be the solution many in Europe and the UK are demanding, fair enough.

[Cyberyeti]

The thing is: you have no waters, on the treaty from centuries ago only the land is given. But anyway, we gotta stop Gibraltar people and enterprises getting rich due to lack of taxes and evasion while the others are getting poorer and poorer.

 

You miss the point, the Spanish bought up an awful lot of the UK's fishing quota and land the fish in Spain often with illegally small mesh nets, a rule the Spanish don't enforce but the UK does. We can end that and get our fishing fleet back.

[mike777]

Speaking of history and stealing fish which Fluffy brought up, lets keep in mind Spain become rich, very rich by stealing Gold and Silver from the America's.......feel free to send us check for back payments. :)

[mike777]

I was wondering also where mike777 lives that he imagines that there is all this land waiting around to be built on.

[/quo

 

btw per Paul Cheshire of the London School of Economics says there is enough green-belt land in Greater London to build 1.6 million houses at average densities.

 

The problem is strong opposition from existing homeowners who believe the newcomers will bring down their home values.

 

In addition there is "brownsfield land" land that previously was used for some industrial purpose.

[Vampyr]

You miss the point, the Spanish bought up an awful lot of the UK's fishing quota and land the fish in Spain often with illegally small mesh nets, a rule the Spanish don't enforce but the UK does. We can end that and get our fishing fleet back.

 

 

I will be very pleased to get our fisheries back.

 

 

btw per Paul Cheshire of the London School of Economics says there is enough green-belt land in Greater London to build 1.6 million houses at average densities.

 

The problem is strong opposition from existing homeowners who believe the newcomers will bring down their home values.

 

In addition there is "brownsfield land" land that previously was used for some industrial purpose.

 

You don't understand. Building on greenbelt land is terrible. London is already practically carpeted with houses. But if you are suggesting that you could solve the housing crisis by making the city a place no one would want to live in, well I guess that's one way to do it.

[mike777]

I will be very pleased to get our fisheries back.

 

 

 

 

You don't understand. Building on greenbelt land is terrible. London is already practically carpeted with houses. But if you are suggesting that you could solve the housing crisis by making the city a place no one would want to live in, well I guess that's one way to do it.

 

 

As I remember you are the one who said there is no land, zero land in all of the Uk yet in greater London I find room for 2 million houses....or more if you build vertical.

 

 

Now if you want to keep making up reasons to not build houses....ok....you live there.....you decide. :)

 

 

Vamp I offer solutions... solutions from the London School of Economics....if you have better ones great...it is your country...good luck.

[Vampyr]

As I remember you are the one who said there is no land, zero land in all of the Uk yet in greater London I find room for 2 million houses....or more if you build vertical.

 

 

Now if you want to keep making up reasons to not build houses....ok....you live there.....you decide. :)

 

 

Vamp I offer solutions... solutions from the London School of Economics....if you have better ones great...it is your country...good luck.

 

England is about the size of Alabama. And it has population equal to Alabama + Georgia + California -- or roughly 10.5 times the population of Alabama. Do you understand now?

[Fluffy]

Speaking of history and stealing fish which Fluffy brought up, lets keep in mind Spain become rich, very rich by stealing Gold and Silver from the America's.......feel free to send us check for back payments. :)

 

If you want to talk trash let me show you some numbers.

 

Peru extracts several times as much gold in ONE YEAR now as we extracted in all the few centuries we had it under control.

 

On the other hand, are you repaying the native americans for all the relatives you slaughtered?, how much are you paying for the rent of their lands?

[Fluffy]

I know I am not going to convince any english/americans who were raised under the black legend with this, but I hope I will give you enough curiosity just to check the facts yourselves. The following is probably innacurate, but I hope you get the idea:

 

When Spain conquered America, they conquered the Incan and Mayan empires, which was bad for Incan and Mayans... who were a minority. Most natives cheered Spain for doing so as they had been conquered by them and were under their rule.

 

Spannish Inquisition didn't kill native americans, the most deceases came from diseases brought from Europe. English slaughtered native americans systematically aiming to grow on their lands. While Spannish tried to convert them to cristianism and make them ponder. First universities in America are all of Spannish build about 100 years before english started.

 

Black people in US had the dream or reaching a Spannish state (California or Florida), if they did they would automatically fall under the Kings law were they would be free and have the rights to own land.

 

When central and south american countries got independence, the natives fought on King's side. It was not a movement to free the poor, it was as always a battle of the rich, and the sons of inmigrants won over the King, and natives had it way worse after it.

[Zelandakh]

I know I am not going to convince any english/americans who were raised under the black legend with this, but I hope I will give you enough curiosity just to check the facts yourselves. The following is probably innacurate, but I hope you get the idea:

Here is a reasonable write-up in bullet points of some key aspects of the initial invasion. Which parts would you consider to be in the "black legend"? Re-writing history into a "white legend" is at least as bad. The truth is that the black legend of which you write does not really exist outside of Spain these days and in its current form is more a reflection of how Spain perceives its own image from others. This is similar to Germany feeling the need to show friendliness towards outside cultures, such as with the current refugee crisis, almost regardless of personal interest to offset the perception that they think WWII gave of the German people.

 

The 16th century was a time when many European countries acted in ways that would be considered unacceptable in a 21st century world. This is nothing new. To pretend that our countries acted altruistically is simply wrong. They were acting according to the customs of their time. The cultures that were conquered naturally gained some benefits from imperialism but I doubt many of them regard this period as a positive in their histories and the positives were certainly offset by negatives. The plusses (and minuses) of British colonial rule were perhaps different from Spanish (or Dutch, Portuguese, French, etc) but that does not in itself make either better and focusing on only that subset of activities that shows a particular culture in a good (or bad) light is not productive.

 

The British are well aware that Spain regards Gibraltar as a land grab and remnant of this colonial phase, much as Hong Kong from China. That is probably a fair assessment of the history, although Gibraltar is essentially self-governed these days (although they rely on the UK for defence). I think that one day Gibraltar could well once again become a part of Spain, although it will probably only happen if Spain embraces Gibraltar rather than trying to isolate it. That would mean that enough Spanish people would eventually move to live there so that a referendum for union would be won. If the attempt at isolation continues, it is likely that Gibraltar will eventually become so independent that the people there manage full self-determination. In that case it might never return to Spain.

 

There is an interesting parallel to Andorra here, which is a country that relies on France and Spain for defence and also has an economy that relies on tourism. I would like to think that Spain would accept an independent Gibraltar in the same way should that be the direction things take. Sadly, it would not surprise me if that were to prove impossible.

[shyams]

How did a discussion on the UK's referendum on staying/leaving EU morph into (a) housing shortfall in London, (b) the "ownership" of Gibraltar, [c] population density ....etc?

[Fluffy]

How did a discussion on the UK's referendum on staying/leaving EU morph into (a) housing shortfall in London, (b) the "ownership" of Gibraltar, [c] population density ....etc?

 

Wellcome the Water Cooler :P

[Fluffy]

Zel that link seems to be accurate from what I know. People contaminated with Black Legend get the idea that Spannish behaviour in America was savage and English in North America was pacific. It is more accurate to say the opposite. You can read there that Conquerors opposed to King's orders, his plans was to expand our culture to their people, and spannish people in America didn't like his plans leading to fights. But English left less witnesses.

[Fluffy]

The British are well aware that Spain regards Gibraltar as a land grab and remnant of this colonial phase, much as Hong Kong from China. That is probably a fair assessment of the history, although Gibraltar is essentially self-governed these days (although they rely on the UK for defence). I think that one day Gibraltar could well once again become a part of Spain, although it will probably only happen if Spain embraces Gibraltar rather than trying to isolate it. That would mean that enough Spanish people would eventually move to live there so that a referendum for union would be won. If the attempt at isolation continues, it is likely that Gibraltar will eventually become so independent that the people there manage full self-determination. In that case it might never return to Spain.

 

There is an interesting parallel to Andorra here, which is a country that relies on France and Spain for defence and also has an economy that relies on tourism. I would like to think that Spain would accept an independent Gibraltar in the same way should that be the direction things take. Sadly, it would not surprise me if that were to prove impossible.

Gibraltar, Andorra switzerland and Panama is where all the corrupt money goes from here. Panama is now sieged, if we could get rich of 2 other....

 

Gibraltar problem right now is expanding, since they have a lot of money power they are now planning on renting land in Spain as storage. They are buying trucks and trucks full of sand to expand their land, and they have the politicians under control as they store their money, and have no problems bribing them when needed. A lot of Spannish people work in Gibraltar... as cheap labour. But that is better than nothing, because economy on the zone except Gibraltar is non existant. As it is right now, blocking them is better than letting them grow.

 

 

[kenberg]

I had never heard of the Black Legend before. I learn a lot here. my first year in high school (that means I was 13) I had to write a high school level paper on something and, how I chose it don't know, I wrote about the Conquistadors. Well, I was 13. Don't expect depth.

 

I see it this way: The American continents, both North and South, became Europeanized. English in the north, Spanish or Portuguese to the south. The dominant language became European, allegiance to European royalty was required, the local authority was exercised by those of European descent, European religious beliefs were imposed etc etc.

 

At a Native American museum in New Mexico, a guide summarized it as follows: The Spanish came and said "You must give us your gold, give us your women, and convert to Christianity". We said "We don't have any gold, you can't have our women, and we are happy with the Gods that we have." So there was trouble.

 

This was a reasonably decent quick summary applying to the European take over, whether English, Spanish or Portuguese. The fundamental take away lesson is that when cultures clash, one culture usually ends up dominating, or eliminating, the other. We can regret this, or condemn it, or we can attempt to justify it, but it seems to be what usually happens.

 

As far as "English [behavior] in North America was pacific", I am not aware of anyone who would claim this. Probably not even the English. After "English" became "U.S.", I hardly claim we were all that pacific either. I may be dumb but I am not ignorant.

 

Now I still hope a way can be found to keep Britain in the EU, regardless of who was the more vicious in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. But I think that the proper view from this side of the Atlantic, are you listening to me Mr. Obama(?), is that the U.S. is prepared to work productively with all parties regardless of how they settle this European matter. Going over to London to explain that if they British vote themselves out of the EU then we will put them at the back of the line, make that back of the queue, is not a good approach.

[andrei]

Going over to London to explain that if they British vote themselves out of the EU then we will put them at the back of the line, make that back of the queue, is not a good approach.

 

Fear mongering?

[fromageGB]

How did a discussion on the UK's referendum on staying/leaving EU morph into (a) housing shortfall in London, (b) the "ownership" of Gibraltar, [c] population density ....etc?

You may not know that the UK has a visa system for residential entry from countries other than the EU. People are accepted if they have skills deemed to be in demand, and are not carrying Kalashnikovs under their burkas. By EU law, anyone from the EU can choose to come to live in this country, whether there is work for them or not. If the existing visa rules were applied to them, three quarters of them would be refused, according to the Oxford University’s Migration Observatory Study commissioned by the Financial Times. Very many are coming in, and the numbers are putting pressure on services that are already under duress. If the population increases, our population density increases. It is already unpleasantly high in many areas.