what should this last double mean?

[Stephen Tu]

[hv=d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1dd1hd(4H + values)pp2dd(??)]133|100[/hv]

[wank]

responsive. something like 3424.

[robert2734]

Partner's hand didn't change. The second double shows what the first double shows and a king better than minimum.

[SteveMoe]

If the first double is penalty, then so is the second. If it is responsive, then the second suggests greater strength. Classical is penalty, modern is responsive.

[apollo1201]

You just exposed a (semi-)psych.

 

X here denies a 5th heart (you would bid them at the appropriate level based on your strength), and probably 4 spades as well as you could bid them now or even at your 1st turn.

 

With 5C and 4H, you probably wouldn't find too much difficulty in bidding them at the 3 level (or cue bid if your hand can make game).

 

So after eliminating all the natural bids, X remains for some kind of 8-10 or bad 11 hcp, most likely 3424 like wank said.

[PhilG007]

[hv=d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1dd1hd(4H + values)pp2dd(??)]133|100[/hv]

It depends on partnership agreement. In a casual pairing,I would be inclined to view

the second double by North as penalty orientated since partner has already bid. I've never really

liked responsive doubles. I found them to be a two edged sword.

[nekthen]

I! would imagine my first double would show less than 4 cards in each black suit and 8+ hcp

I do not see the point of a responsive double in this situation

The second dbl is then clearly penalty. I think -1 is better than our part score or -3 is better than game. I probably have 4/5 diamonds and 3/4 hearts

[daffydoc]

my first db showed 4H and enough to likely beat 1Hx - the second dbl continues the theme that it is our hand - NOT penalty - unless somehow partner has a hand that can convert. daffydoc

[MRTRUB44]

According to the convention I was first taught, the first double would mean you had hearts - a double after partner's first bid followed by an opponent bid meant that the opponent had bid what you would have bid if he passed. The meaning of double in this sort of situation is very much partnership agreement.

[zillahandp]

For christ' sake bid.

[lycier]

[hv=d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1dd1hd(4H + values)pp2dd(??)]133|100[/hv]

 

Good topic, but too difficulty to everyone, would you tell the standard answer to us?

[Stephen Tu]

Good topic, but too difficulty to everyone, would you tell the standard answer to us?

 

If I already knew the standard answer, I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place. The poll was to determine if there is a standard, apparently there is not.

[Phil]

Probably penalty. Opps are running and we are in a forcing pass. But it depends on your meta agreements in this instance.

[Siegmund]

I think it's a lot more likely to be 3442/2443, than 3424. Partner made a TOX of diamonds, opener failed to rebid his suit. They aren't likely to have 10 diamonds on this auction (and if they do have, 2S or 3C is never going to buy the contract.)

 

I wouldnt quite say it PROMISES a diamond stack, but certainly sounds like a hand that would have bid notrump if we weren't already at 2D.

[Phil]

I guess another way to look at this is if you simply heard the auction before your 2nd x, and then looked at your hand, would it surprise you to see 8 or 9 cards in the red suits?

[wank]

i wouldn't categorise it as 'running'.

 

lho bid his 4 card suit and all we did was show more hearts than them. he's almost never going to pass there.

[gnasher]

It says you want to take action but you don't have anything to bid. In terms of shape, that means you don't have four spades, five hearts, or five clubs.

 

The more diamonds you have, the more strength you need to justify your action. With 3=4=2=4 or 3=4=3=3, you're happy to hear partner bid anything, so you don't need much extra strength. With 3=4=4=2 you need considerable extra strength, because partner might bid 3♣.

[Stephen Tu]

It says you want to take action but you don't have anything to bid. In terms of shape, that means you don't have four spades, five hearts, or five clubs.

With 1=4=3=5 or 2=4=2=5, are you always bidding 2♣ instead of the first round double, or are you saying to double then bid 3♣?

[lycier]

[hv=d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1dd1hd(4H + values)pp2dd(??)]133|100[/hv]

 

After some serious thought, I totally disagree with penalty, I think this squence is consistent with the sequence 1♦ - (S-X) - 2♦ - (N-X), in fact the last double is a sort of varaint responsive double ! And it should tell the informations to us at below :

1- Whatever west responding 1♥ is a psyche or a 4-card ♥, please ignore 1♥.

2- North has some strength/ good shapes enough to make this responsive double.

3- North has 4-4 majors for sure, encourage south to pick up a major.

4- Generally speaking, north usually has a invitational hand, especially majors game.

This double is responsive double, we shouldn't change its original meanings because of 1♥ interference.

[Zelandakh]

After some serious thought, I totally disagree with penalty,

It is actually what SteveM said right at the top. You are right that responsive makes more sense but under classical rules it is penalty. In earlier times pairs tended to have simpler rules for doubles and generally more penalty doubles available. Things have developed somewhat since those times but a lot of these decisions tend to depend on how old/traditional your partner is if playing pick-up bridge. You can pretty much just read #4 and #17 in this thread and ignore the rest and you will have everything you need.

[lycier]

Today I suddenly think of why we don't seek for Gib's help? Gib CC still is developed by some bridge experts, so I would make two similar hands, not good, hoping Gib tell us its answer.

 

1-

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=机器人&s=SAJ95HAQ82D92CK72&wn=lycier&w=SQ32HT5DT753CJ864&nn=机器人&n=SKT8HKJ976DA8C953&en=机器人&e=S764H43DKQJ64CAQT&d=n&v=o&b=1&a=P1D(Minor%20suit%20opening%20--%203+%20%21D%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)D(Takeout%20double%20--%203-5%20%21C%3B%202-%20%21D%3B%203-4%20%21H%3B%203-4%20%21S%3B%2012+%20total%20points)1H(Free%20bid%3B%20new%20suit%20--%204+%20%21H%3B%208+%20total%20points)D(4-%20%21H%3B%204-%20%21S%3B%2011%20HCP%3B%20biddable%20%21H%3B%2012-%20total%20points)PP2D(4+%20%21D%3B%204+%20%21H%3B%208+%20total%20points)D(2+%20%21D%3B%204-%20%21H%3B%204-%20%21S%3B%2011%20HCP%3B%20biddable%20%21H%3B%2012-%20total%20points)P4H(3-5%20%21C%3B%202-%20%21D%3B%204%20%21H%3B%203-4%20%21S%3B%2013+%20HCP%3B%2014-20%20total%20points)PPP&p=DTDAD6D2H7H3HQH5S9S2SKS4H9H4HAHTH8D3H6D4S5SQSTS6D5D8DJD9S7SAS3S8SJD7C3CTH2C4HKCQC5CAC2C6DKC7C8HJC9DQCKCJ]400|300[/hv]

 

2-

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=lycier&s=SQ32HT5DT753CJ864&wn=机器人&w=SKT8HKJ976DA8C953&nn=机器人&n=S764H43DKQJ64CAQT&en=机器人&e=SAJ95HAQ82D92CK72&d=n&v=o&b=1&a=1D(Minor%20suit%20opening%20--%203+%20%21D%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)D(Takeout%20double%20--%203-5%20%21C%3B%202-%20%21D%3B%203-4%20%21H%3B%203-4%20%21S%3B%2012+%20total%20points)1H(Free%20bid%3B%20new%20suit%20--%204+%20%21H%3B%208+%20total%20points)D(4-%20%21H%3B%204-%20%21S%3B%2011+%20HCP%3B%20biddable%20%21H)PP2D(4+%20%21D%3B%204+%20%21H%3B%208+%20total%20points)D(2+%20%21D%3B%204-%20%21H%3B%204-%20%21S%3B%2011+%20HCP%3B%20biddable%20%21H)P3D(3-5%20%21C%3B%202-%20%21D%3B%203-4%20%21H%3B%203-4%20%21S%3B%2013+%20HCP%3B%2014+%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P3N(2+%20%21D%3B%204-%20%21H%3B%204-%20%21S%3B%2012-19%20HCP%3B%20biddable%20%21H%3B%20stop%20in%20%21D%3B%20stop%20in%20%21H)P4H(3-5%20%21C%3B%202-%20%21D%3B%204%20%21H%3B%203-4%20%21S%3B%2013+%20HCP%3B%2014-18%20total%20points)PPP&p=D5DAD6D2HJH3H8H5HKH4H2HTH9S4HAD3S9S2SKS6STS7SJSQDTD8D4D9C4C9CQCKS5S3S8CTH7DKHQD7SAC6C5DQC2C8C3CADJC7CJH6]400|300[/hv]

 

Now we can see second double is to show 4-card+♥ with 10hcp+,invitational hand.

Any idea?