Why not show your Diamonds?

[1eyedjack]

[hv=sn=1eyedjack&s=SKQJT87H53DAQ6CA2&wn=Robot&w=S953HAJ94D82CKQT9&nn=Robot&n=SAHKQ872DKJ543C54&en=Robot&e=S642HT6DT97CJ8763&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=P1S(Major%20suit%20opening%20--%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B)P2H(Forcing%20two%20over%20one%20--%205+%20%21H%3B%2012+%20HCP%3B%2013+%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P2S(Opener%20rebids%20suit%20--%203-%20%21H%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-2)P3H(12+%20HCP%3B%20twice%20rebiddable%20%21H%3B%2013+%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P3S(3-%20%21H%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%20twice%20rebiddable%20%21S%3B%201)P4S(2+%20%21S%3B%2012+%20HCP%3B%20twice%20rebiddable%20%21H%3B%2013-18%20total%20points)PPP&p=CKC4C3CAS7S3SAS6D3DTDQD8SKS5H2S4SQS9H7S2SJH9H8C7DAD2D4D9D6C9DKD7DJC8C2H4D5C6H3CTHQHTH5HAHJHKH6S8STCQC5CJ]400|300[/hv]

 

MP, Instant, 34

 

Not a great result, and 100% of the blame falls on my 2S rebid where I should rebid 3S.

 

But had I rebid 3S the world would not have been treated to the wonders of North's 3H.

[lycier]

MP, Instant, 34

 

Not a great result, and 100% of the blame falls on my 2S rebid where I should rebid 3S.

 

But had I rebid 3S the world would not have been treated to the wonders of North's 3H.

 

Not necessarily so.

First, please review my post in the another forum : What's your logical definitions?

 

Second, how many TPs are there in your hand?

Only 17 TPs, however the Gib explanations on 3♠ should be " 3♠=Jump rebid---21-hcp,strong rebiddable ♠,18-22TPs,forcing.", so I think it is no problem for you to rebid 2♠, jump 3♠ should be a worse auction actually.

 

Third, after your rebid-2♠, we are 100% sure that north Gib rebid 3♦ will be only way.

 

Fourth, I think it is a tough work for the current Gib to show/ describe complicated suits length.

 

Not necessarily correct. Just saying.

[gwnn]

What do you mean by "complicated suits length"? It has hearts and diamonds so it should bid hearts and diamonds. What's so complicated about that? 2H and 3D because I have H+D. They are computers, they are supposed to be good at counting stuff.

[iandayre]

The next time you want to make a bid like 3D (a second suit after you have made a game-forcing 2/1 response), check the description. You'll see that it promises about an Ace better than an minimum opening bid. Why GIB was programmed this way is anyone's guess, but many have noted that it is a treatment that cannot be found in any 2/1 book. When I hold a similar hand, I usually bid the second suit anyway, but sometimes I get too high.

[1eyedjack]

The next time you want to make a bid like 3D (a second suit after you have made a game-forcing 2/1 response), check the description. You'll see that it promises about an Ace better than an minimum opening bid. Why GIB was programmed this way is anyone's guess, but many have noted that it is a treatment that cannot be found in any 2/1 book. When I hold a similar hand, I usually bid the second suit anyway, but sometimes I get too high.

OK, so rebid 2N. I have no objection to 3D showing extras. That could actually be useful, albeit I agree non-standard. But 3H??

[cloa513]

The next time you want to make a bid like 3D (a second suit after you have made a game-forcing 2/1 response), check the description. You'll see that it promises about an Ace better than an minimum opening bid. Why GIB was programmed this way is anyone's guess, but many have noted that it is a treatment that cannot be found in any 2/1 book. When I hold a similar hand, I usually bid the second suit anyway, but sometimes I get too high.

There are 2/1 Non-game forcing systems such this one in Bridge Winners

 

http://bridgewinners.com/article/view/21-not-game-forcing/

[iandayre]

OK, so rebid 2N. I have no objection to 3D showing extras. That could actually be useful, albeit I agree non-standard. But 3H??

 

You are right, when you actually do have the extras it can be helpful, if partner bids 3NT it's usually safe to pass. Presumably GIB considers rebidding Hearts less of a lie than bidding 2NT with two small clubs.

 

I'll respond to Cloa here too - not sure of your point. GIB plays 2/1. I am aware it is not the only system in the world.

[johnu]

There are 2/1 Non-game forcing systems such this one in Bridge Winners

 

http://bridgewinners.com/article/view/21-not-game-forcing/

 

The common understanding of playing a 2/1 system is that 2 over 1 bids are game forcing. If they aren't forcing, then you aren't playing 2/1. You are playing specific 2 over 1 bids as forcing and others as non forcing.

[johnu]

OK, so rebid 2N. I have no objection to 3D showing extras. That could actually be useful, albeit I agree non-standard. But 3H??

 

Playing 3D as extras is a typical example of GIB playing non-percentage non-standard bids. Presumably GIB won't rebid 2NT without a club stopper and diamond stopper, so the default bid without spade support is 3H, rebidding a 5 card suit. Opener doesn't know which, if any, minor is stopped by responder and has to stab at the final contract. Unlike when opener rebids a new suit at the 3 level which raise the level and takes up bidding space, 3D actually saves space as it gives opener a chance to make a delayed preference to 3H and lets him know that he shouldn't worry about diamonds for 3NT.

[1eyedjack]

For what it's worth, I just had a hand as responder after 1S-2H-2S. I scrolled over responder's 3D rebid and it does indeed promise 17+ total points.

 

I have no idea now what is "standard", or even passes as "popular". Nor do I have a strong objection to the style, now that I know. But given the difference in bidding space consumed by 2N and 3H rebids by responder, the available room to investigate minor holdings over 2N, and the benefits of distinguishing between a 5 and 6 card major, then within that style I would prefer 2N here.

[lycier]

Today I have studied specially this issue. The results at below.

 

1- When I play with south Gib , it goes :

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=机器人&s=SKQJT87H53DAQ6CA2&wn=机器人&w=S953HAJ94D82CKQT9&nn=lycier&n=SAHKQ872DKJ543C54&e=S642HT6DT97CJ8763&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=P1S(Major%20suit%20opening%20--%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)P2H(Forcing%20two%20over%20one%20--%205+%20%21H%3B%2012+%20HCP%3B%2013+%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P2S(Opener%20rebids%20suit%20--%203-%20%21H%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P3D(4+%20%21D%3B%205+%20%21H%3B%202-%20%21S%3B%2017+%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P3N(3-%20%21H%3B%205-6%20%21S%3B%2011-17%20HCP%3B%2012+%20total%20points%3B%20likely%20stop%20in%20%21C)PPP]400|300[/hv]

 

Note that rebid-3♦=4+♦,5+♥,2-♠,17+TPs,forcing to 3N.

2- When I play with north Gib, it goes :

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=lycier&s=SKQJT87H53DAQ6CA2&w=S953HAJ94D82CKQT9&nn=机器人&n=SAHKQ872DKJ543C54&en=机器人&e=S642HT6DT97CJ8763&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=P1S(Major%20suit%20opening%20--%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)P2H(Forcing%20two%20over%20one%20--%205+%20%21H%3B%2012+%20HCP%3B%2013+%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P2S(Opener%20rebids%20suit%20--%203-%20%21H%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P3H(12+%20HCP%3B%20twice%20rebiddable%20%21H%3B%2013+%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P3N(3-%20%21H%3B%205-6%20%21S%3B%2013-20%20HCP%3B%2022-%20total%20points%3B%20partial%20stop%20in%20%21C%3B%20partial%20stop%20in%20%21D)PPP]400|300[/hv]

 

3- When south Gib plays with north Gib, it goes :

 

[hv=http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?sn=机器人&s=SKQJT87H53DAQ6CA2&wn=机器人&w=S953HAJ94D82CKQT9&nn=机器人&n=SAHKQ872DKJ543C54&en=机器人&e=S642HT6DT97CJ8763&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=P1S(Major%20suit%20opening%20--%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points)P2H(Forcing%20two%20over%20one%20--%205+%20%21H%3B%2012+%20HCP%3B%2013+%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P2S(Opener%20rebids%20suit%20--%203-%20%21H%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P3H(12+%20HCP%3B%20twice%20rebiddable%20%21H%3B%2013+%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N)P4H(2-3%20%21H%3B%205+%20%21S%3B%2011+%20HCP%3B%2012-17%20total%20points)PPP&p=DTDQD2D4H3H4HKHTSAS2S7S3C5C3CACTSKS9C4S6H5HAH7H6CKH8C6C2HQC8D6HJD5D7DAD8SQS5D3S4SJH9DKC7C9H2CJSTDJD9S8CQ]400|300[/hv]

 

As a beginner, this issue, I think, is caused not so much by Gib as by programmers and experts, this issue can be solved by them so well.

[1eyedjack]

So, Lycier, to complete the picture, what explanation is given to the alternative rebid of 2N by responder? Ie 1S-2H-2S-2N

 

And what do the various alternative options by GIB mean over 2N?

 

Thanks

[lycier]

So, Lycier, to complete the picture, what explanation is given to the alternative rebid of 2N by responder? Ie 1S-2H-2S-2N

 

And what do the various alternative options by GIB mean over 2N?

 

Thanks

 

You are welcome.

 

 

You should know BBO much hope our fans,especially non-expert players including me,only report.In another word,Gib programmers really know the exact reasons, and in fact as a Gib fans, most of us have no ability to guide their Gib programming. (I am surprised at 3♦ showing 17+TPS, I really don't understand Gib 2/1 style, I think that is not 2/1 complete style at least.) So I often say " just saying" or " just reporting", is that not a good idea? ok?

[gwnn]

It's not caused by GIB but by the programmers? what kind of distinction is that? GIB has no free will. It always does what the programmers tell it to do.

[iandayre]

In the end, this hand demonstrates the unplayability of being unable to bid a second suit of 5 card length after having made a GF 2/1 response. Partner is usually forced to make a wild guess when responder is systemically not permitted to describe their hand. Only by bidding diamonds can the good slam be reached.

 

And Jack is right the 3H is the worst choice. 4H could fail with bad breaks with 6NT Cold!

[Stephen Tu]

FWIW IMO it's ridiculous to require 17+ to show 2nd suit at this point of the auction. Totally abnormal, a bug/rule gap in database causing this.

 

There is good argument for require *opener* to have extra for show 2nd suit at 3 level "high reverse", e.g. 1s-2h-3D, which allow responder cheaper 2nd call and more room for info exchange and limit opener's hand vs. 1s-2h-2s-2nt-3d. But not here where opener already got a 2nd call opportunity, responder should be able to show 2nd suit without extra.

[lycier]

FWIW IMO it's ridiculous to require 17+ to show 2nd suit at this point of the auction. Totally abnormal, a bug/rule gap in database causing this.

 

There is good argument for require *opener* to have extra for show 2nd suit at 3 level "high reverse", e.g. 1s-2h-3D, which allow responder cheaper 2nd call and more room for info exchange and limit opener's hand vs. 1s-2h-2s-2nt-3d. But not here where opener already got a 2nd call opportunity, responder should be able to show 2nd suit without extra.

 

Good reply, thanks.