Poor 6S: What went wrong?

[kgsmith]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj82hkq7djt65c73&w=st6ht6542dk8ckt95&n=sa975haj93dacaq42&e=sk43h8dq97432cj86&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=ppp1c(2%2B)p1sp4d(Splinter)p4h(Cue)p6sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

At IMPs and using a standard "strong and 5" system, we played in 6♠-1 on the ♥4 lead. Where did we go wrong?

 

I assume the auction is the problem. FYI, the heart lead was won with the king, and the SQ run to the SK. A diamond was returned. Partner drew one more round of trumps, took the club finesse and tried to ruff two clubs, using a heart as one entry to dummy. The heart was ruffed for -1.

[kenberg]

The 6S seems clearly wrong. Responder really has more than he needs to bid 4H. He looks at his hand, figures opener has a stiff diamond, not figuring it to be the Ace, and so figures all iof his points, except for the diamond Jack, are working. I would expect him to bid 4H even w/o the heart Q to back it up. So I think, over 4H, a bid of 4S suffices. If responder quits, as he might, that should be a good contract.

 

Splintering on a stiff Ace is often not viewed favorably, and this hand shows why. As mentioned, S hears the splinter and figures that N's values are all outside of diamonds. That sounds good to him.

 

Also, N's trump suit is not great. He gets decent support from dummy with the QJ, but even if the K lies with W there is still the ten to worry about. Yes, maybe after the first trump finesse holds (if the K is with W) we can bring it in by cashing a second spade, leaving the last one out, and then playing for a club finesse and a couple of ruffs. Still, we are too high if it takes a spade finesse, a 3-2 trump split, and a club finesse.

 

N needs to calm down a bit, I think. After P-1C-1S we are gong to game, but responder's views have to be solicited about a slam. Just hearing 4H over 4D is not enough information.

[monikrazy]

Is 4♥ from S clear? We have an ok hand, but I'm not sure we should be encouraging slam.

 

 

Once S cooperate with a slam try, the 6S bid seems fine (i'm not sure how much value there is searching for a grand here opposite a passed hand, and there is something to be said for fast arrival) . Also not bothered by splintering with an ace when the opener is this strong.

[SteveMoe]

Sure, you have to have the ♣K onside and you have to hold trumps to 1 loser (edgy missing the K & 10). Not sufficient success likelihood to bid it (Marshall Miles advocated bidding any slam that is a WORST on a finesse), but this will be far from the worst slam you'll ever find yourself in.

 

Maybe I am influenced too much by the double dummy presentation, but conservative play should make six, no? On the lead of the ♥4, I'd be thinking that someone is short - because I have ALL the tops. So you win in dummy and lead a trump toward your ♠QJ. RHO will likely duck. Now a ♣finesse (this has to be there) ♣A and ruff a ♣. ♠ to the A (noting the 3-2 split and the fall of the 10) and the 4th ♣ ruff. Now play out ♥s. RHO can win the trump K whenever. Dummy is high and you can get there.

 

(If LHO wins the ♠K I play RHO for 10xx).

 

Since I am in a poor slam and can "afford" one ♠ loser, I might as well play that suit to maximize my chances that I get only one loser.

 

As for the bidding, I do not like the 4♦ splinter bid for reasons stated by others. However there aren't many other alternatives. Perhaps 2♥ lying about my ♣ length then followed by a jump in ♠ - maybe partner will field this maybe they wont. However it will stop partner from thinking you have more in the Black Suits.

[akwoo]

I suppose it depends on your partnership agreements, but I would think that the zero-cost cue bid of 4♥ should be made on any hand with a heart control that hasn't been devalued by the splinter.

 

Give partner the perfect minimum of both major suit kings AND a 5th spade, and 6♠ still isn't a good contract unless you're swinging. So I don't think 6♠ is a good bid.

[mike777]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj82hkq7djt65c73&w=st6ht6542dk8ckt95&n=sa975haj93dacaq42&e=sk43h8dq97432cj86&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=ppp1c(2%2B)p1sp4d(Splinter)p4h(Cue)p6sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

At IMPs and using a standard "strong and 5" system, we played in 6♠-1 on the ♥4 lead. Where did we go wrong?

 

I assume the auction is the problem. FYI, the heart lead was won with the king, and the SQ run to the SK. A diamond was returned. Partner drew one more round of trumps, took the club finesse and tried to ruff two clubs, using a heart as one entry to dummy. The heart was ruffed for -1.

 

Given OP why not start 1d by responder? You are not playing Walsh style.

that slows down the entire deal.

Now ADD THE fact 4441 hands tend to not play well, again slows the deal down.

 

so we see not one but two reasons to slow down.

[wanoff]

The final bid was a bit pushy but if the club finesse had been taken at trick 2, the hand plays itself.

[wank]

north doesn't have his 6s bid or even a 2nd try. he's minimum for his 4d call. yes he's got 19 points but he's got a terrible shape, no tricks and his 4 points as the AD would be more useful elsewhere.

 

4h by south is obvious. for those doubting that, he should be catering to something more like [hv=pc=n&n=sak32ha4d6cakj432]133|100[/hv]

[fourdad]

Given OP why not start 1d by responder? You are not playing Walsh style.

that slows down the entire deal.

Now ADD THE fact 4441 hands tend to not play well, again slows the deal down.

 

so we see not one but two reasons to slow down.

 

I agree with slowing down......my partnerships would bid 1D as responder. The bidding would follow: 1C-1D-2S-4S...end of story.

 

If responder bids 1S then N's most descriptive bid is 4S!! Showing game values if pd has a minimum hand. Would S continue? I think not.

[Caitlynne]

Several things went wrong, and most but not all of them were North's doing.

 

First, the 4D splinter is inadvisable because of the stiff Ace. Splinters are supposed to say "values in this suit are bad." But stiff Ace opposite a holding like KQJx would be excellent. So the Splinter bid was bad.

 

South's 4H was aggressive. But North's 6S was insane. At best North has a minimum Splinter (19 HCP is dead minimum and that stiff Ace again is bad) and the trumps are not anything that South would not expect.

[kgsmith]

Thanks for the inputs. To answer the question about why not 1♦, we do play Walsh style, so 1♠ was required. 4♠ over 1♠ would show a weaker, shapely hand, probably 6-4. Although the splinter with a stiff Ace was undesirable, North is a little stuck for a value bid. It seems from the responses that North should settle for 4♠ over 4♥, and let responder make another push with a little extra, though it would be tricky for an aceless North to push beyond game with a little more.

[ggwhiz]

Yeah, 5♠ instead of 6 is about the most north should do as you could add the club King to the responders hand and give them worse spades.

 

Although I rarely do it, there might be a case for north to fake a reverse into 2♥ followed by insisting on spades. That would also get the shortness in diamonds across and leave responder to wonder why no splinter. We choose this route so that we NEVER splinter on a stiff Ace (or King).

[monikrazy]

north doesn't have his 6s bid or even a 2nd try. he's minimum for his 4d call. yes he's got 19 points but he's got a terrible shape, no tricks and his 4 points as the AD would be more useful elsewhere.

 

4h by south is obvious. for those doubting that, he should be catering to something more like [hv=pc=n&n=sak32ha4d6cakj432]133|100[/hv]

 

And for the partnerships that don't splinter with premium 6-4 hands? Is a 4♥ bid still obvious?

[wank]

And for the partnerships that don't splinter with premium 6-4 hands? Is a 4♥ bid still obvious?

 

eh? if the OP was playing some kind of artificial rebid structure where he could bid 2NT or some such, i expect we'd have been told.

[monikrazy]

eh? if the OP was playing some kind of artificial rebid structure where he could bid 2NT or some such, i expect we'd have been told.

 

I was thinking along the lines of a more mundane 4♣ from said hand.

[wanoff]

And for the partnerships that don't splinter with premium 6-4 hands? Is a 4♥ bid still obvious?

 

How much worse could it be? Could it be as bad as:

[hv=pc=n&n=sk432ha4d6cakj432]133|100[/hv]

[monikrazy]

I was trying to point out that many pairs would explicitly not bid 4♦ with a 6-4 shape. And by extension, that it's still unclear whether the 4♥ bid is favored.

[wank]

I was thinking along the lines of a more mundane 4♣ from said hand.

 

if you do that, you can't show shape. on the actual hand kh is a trick and on a heart lead kd is toilet paper. a splinter clears that up. 4c would not.

 

as far as i'm concerned 4c shows a 4225 shape. something like axxx ax ax akxxx.

[zillahandp]

Surly the bidding should go 1c, 1d, 1h, 1s (4th suit) 2s 4s, and now going ven fast arrival a mild try of 5c? 5s pass ass pass but North may just ignore fast arrival and bid 6 why are you all skipping the heart suita.

[miamijd]

I think South and North both took too rosy a view.

 

South has an 8-loser hand with only 4 spades, no Aces, and the Jd wasted. That means you need a 4 loser hand with four key cards from partner just to have a chance. Not great odds. I can't castigate 4h, but I think 4s is probably wiser.

 

After 4h, North has a five-loser hand with a stiff Ace (always better to have a small stiff and values in the long suits) and no outside source of tricks (no five-card suit). It isn't likely that partner has a 7-loser hand as a passed hand. I would go quietly with 4s; maybe partner's hand is good enough to make another move (it isn't).

[1eyedjack]

I am not keen on the 4D splinter but it is forgivable if the alternatives are all similarly flawed. I agree with South's 4H and then with North I would commit to 5S after the 4H, but not to 6S.

 

The only new point I bring to the table is that for me 3D would be a splinter, and being a level lower North may feel that the slow approach is more likely to elicit enough extra useful information in order bother to look for it.

[jogs]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj82hkq7djt65c73&w=st6ht6542dk8ckt95&n=sa975haj93dacaq42&e=sk43h8dq97432cj86&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=ppp1c(2%2B)p1sp4d(Splinter)p4h(Cue)p6sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

At IMPs and using a standard "strong and 5" system, we played in 6♠-1 on the ♥4 lead. Where did we go wrong?

 

I assume the auction is the problem. FYI, the heart lead was won with the king, and the SQ run to the SK. A diamond was returned. Partner drew one more round of trumps, took the club finesse and tried to ruff two clubs, using a heart as one entry to dummy. The heart was ruffed for -1.

With the ST being doubleton, doesn't 6S make? Only lose one trick to the spade king.

CK onside. 2 clubs, 2 club ruffs, 1 diamond, 4 hearts, and 3 spades. 12 tricks.

[WesleyC]

Both players pushed a little too hard on this deal and got to a marginal slam - I wouldn't call it a disaster. If declarer guessed a little better they might even have made it!

 

As no-one else has raised it I wanted to add that in sequences like this where one player is able to describe their hand very precisely, it is far more valuable to use 4H as a generic 'last train' slam try rather than specifically as a heart cue.