I must choose

[kenberg]

Pick-up on BBO, we have played a half dozen hands so far, going reasonably well. Except for his self-rating as World Class, partner seems to be a normal human.

 

Imps. Rho deals and passes, I have a good hand. We are vul, they are not. It begins:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj4h2dakq63cakq5&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1dp1hp3cp3sp3n]133|200[/hv]

 

OK so far? Imo I have shown a strong hand, something like 5/4 in the minors, and a willingness to play in 3NT if partner thinks that might be right.

 

But it doesn't end there.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj4h2dakq63cakq5&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1dp1hp3cp3sp3np4hp4sp5hp]133|200[/hv]

 

After pard bids 4H my thinking was that he has a major two-suiter and wants my opinion. My opinion is that spades will play better then hearts, so I bid 4S. Now pard pulls tp 5H.

 

Time to rethink this. If pard wanted to play game in hearts, there was no need for the 3S bid. Otoh, he did pull 3NT to 4H, not 5H. So I am being asked to do what?

 

What is the question and what is my answer?

[wank]

the best i can come up with is something like a kjtxxxxx xx xx.

 

he has no way to set hearts and wheel out keycard and the 5 level isn't safe anyway if you have the wrong cards.

 

i think he has to have a spade card for his 3s bid, otherwise he could bid 3h, 4h to show a slammy hand in hearts.

[billw55]

Heheh, good one. Whatever happens, I hope partner will understand that miscommunications are to be expected in a pickup partnership.

 

Partner's auction does not make sense if 3♠ was meant as artificial: with 5 hearts he would remain in notrump, and with 6+ he would rebid them immediately. Even 3♥ is ok as we are already in a game force.

 

On the other hand, 4♥-5♥ smells strongly of a "that's not what I meant" sequence.

 

Or perhaps partner is something like 46(21) or 4711.

 

Maybe he thinks spades are set as trump and 5♥ is a cue seeking slam.

 

Difficult position but I will try 6♣, and pass out partner's next bid.

 

 

 

 

[kenberg]

I thought that my realistic choices were between 6H and Pass. There are 12 tricks in hearts but 5H making 6 scored plus since a spade lead beats 6NT. The spade King is offside and I would be the declarer. In 6H, it doesn't matter where the spade King is.

 

The hearts have to behave for 6H to make but that's about all that's it, barring some truly unexpected ruff. Upon reflection, I though maybe my thinking should have been 1+5+3+3=12 and bid it. Probably 6C would fetch 6H from pard, but if he held 4=6=0=3 maybe it wouldn't.

 

Anyway, I passed, 12 tricks were there, we got 5+ imps. Here are the hands:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj4h2dakq63cakq5&w=s98h8763d542cj843&n=sa762hkqjt94dtc97&e=skt53ha5dj987ct62]399|300[/hv]

 

From the N point of view, not knowing the details of my spades, I suppose the worry is an opening spade lead setting up a trick before the ace of hearts is knocked out.

Anyway, we almost got there!

 

Added: Obviously 6NT played by South has no chance, but for whatever amusement value it has, if you switch the EW hands then 6NT by S can still be beaten if W is up for laying down the K of spades.

 

I guarantee I never considered 6NT, as I say it was 6H or Pass.

[monikrazy]

as bid agree that the most logical interpretation of the auction is to treat the 5H bid as a cue bid for spades

 

i guess that leaves a grand slam force 5n as our best option since cue-bidding one of the minors when we have both won't let the partnership know whether we have all the keycards

 

 

 

looking at partner's hand it seems clear that 3s was intended as natural, which is a mistake given his amazing heart suit and the auction, after you show 9+ minors partnership is never going to play in spades

[rmnka447]

I probably would have opened the hand with 2 ♣ as you have a very solid 3 loser hand. The problem I see with opening 1 ♦ is that partner will never be able to figure out you're as strong as you are even if you jump shift.

 

But with the actual auction, I think the choices are between 6 ♥ and pass.

 

Lacking any firm agreements, it seems like responder has to have a pretty good hand to bid 3 ♠ over 3 ♣. Otherwise, a preference or simple ♥ rebid could be made.

 

Partner's 4 ♥ bid should show 4-6 in the majors. How good are partner's majors? You can't know the answer to that completely. It would seem like they ought to be decent. With 4 bad ♠ (say 10xxx), responder might well forget about ♠ and simply rebid ♥ initially. But there's just no way to know if you can keep major losers to only 1 trick if you bid on.

 

Without that knowledge, I'd pass 5 ♥. For those who would bid 6, I would pose that it's equally likely that responder could hold ♠ K10xx ♥ AQJ109x ♦ x ♣ xx and 6 ♥ depends on finding ♥ K doubleton onside to make. If you don't know, then you can't go.

[kenberg]

as bid agree that the most logical interpretation of the auction is to treat the 5H bid as a cue bid for spades

 

i guess that leaves a grand slam force 5n as our best option since cue-bidding one of the minors when we have both won't let the partnership know whether we have all the keycards

 

 

 

looking at partner's hand it seems clear that 3s was intended as natural, which is a mistake given his amazing heart suit and the auction, after you show 9+ minors partnership is never going to play in spades

 

I think he wanted to convince me he had the ace of spades and good hearts, but still wanted my opinion. When he bid 4H I was thinking he was asking me to choose between spades and hearts, but when he pulled 4S to 5H I re-thought this and more or less got the message.

 

You make a good case for why I should have gotten a different message, but in fact I got the general intent he had in mind. If my stiff heart were the Jack (it's in his hand so that would not be) then I would have happily raised 5H to 6H. As it was, I gave it some thought anyway. and then passed.

 

The NS cards make 6H a high percentage contract. I am not at all trying to beat up on partner, or on myself, but what would you envision as a good auction?

Of course N, with five heart tricks and the spade Ace, might well think, after hearing my jump shift, that 12 tricks are there if the opponents do not have 2 tricks first. Playing pick-up I often bash and might have done so here. But that has been known to go wrong. Given that he rejects bashing and wants to bring me into the decision, how to do it? His way in fact managed to bring me in, I just got it wrong.

 

 

Whatever I could logically have thought after 5H, I understood this auction to mean that I was to choose between passing 5H and bidding 6H, and I guessed (or thought?) wrong. But it is an interesting hand, and I am not sure what should be done. Had he bid 5H directly over 3NT, I think I might have bid 6. Easy to say now. As it went, I was not so sure the hearts were as solid as they were.

[johnu]

The only question I have is why North didn't drive to 6♥ by himself. A void is probably good enough support with that suit. I don't know what North was trying to show with his bidding but it didn't show the hand he had.

[y66]

I think 3S followed by 4H showed self-sufficient hearts and slam interest (else 4H directly). After 4S, which would usually be first round control, perhaps responder suspected a mixup and didn't feel like blasting 6H thinking you still might if you had the king of spades and 5 top tricks in the minors.

[wank]

north underbid. he can jump to 5h over 3nt.

[kenberg]

I think 3S followed by 4H showed self-sufficient hearts and slam interest (else 4H directly). After 4S, which would usually be first round control, perhaps responder suspected a mixup and didn't feel like blasting 6H thinking you still might if you had the king of spades and 5 top tricks in the minors.

 

Suppose he had six hearts and five spades (not unreasonable, he did have six hearts and four spades. After 1D-1H-3C-3S-3NT he does what? Bids 4H, I think, offering a choice.

My general view is that auctions should be construed as natural until we see otherwise. The bidding seems to me to be consistent with 6-5, so that's what it is until partner convinces me otherwise I treated 4H-4S-5H as convincing me otherwise, but Moni above makes a decent case for even that still being a slam try in spades. I had not even thought of that.

[kenberg]

north underbid. he can jump to 5h over 3nt.

 

Yes, I think this might have done it. Surely 4H was passable, so my enthusiasm for 6H after 4S-5H was limited.

 

5H over 3NT would seem to be: Bid 6 if you possibly can. I imagine I possibly could.

 

But it's a tough hand for pickup, and even for non-pickup I think. Which explains why we got 5 imps anyway.

[robert2734]

I might of been north on this hand. 3S is a misclick meaning to rebid 3H. I live with it rather than whine like a baby and ask for a redo. 4H,5H are an attempt to recover rather than play 3N or 4S down horribly. He doesn't promise a spade stop for 3NT since i bid them. Maybe he has Sxxx Hx DAKQxx CAKQx. 3NT is down on the mandatory spade lead, the unbid suit. 4S only makes because the spade spots drop. And he might have the previous hand. I don't know his spades are this good. I honestly don't get into delicate inference auctions on BBO with people I just met a few hands ago. I have a very natural style. Whatever the merits of this auction at a world championship with a partner you've played with for 20 years.

 

Looks like Billw figured it out. "On the other hand, 4♥-5♥ smells strongly of a "that's not what I meant" sequence." I can now say I'm friend of Billw.

[billw55]

I honestly don't get into delicate inference auctions on BBO with people I just met a few hands ago.

This seems wise.

[johnu]

I think 3S followed by 4H showed self-sufficient hearts and slam interest (else 4H directly). After 4S, which would usually be first round control, perhaps responder suspected a mixup and didn't feel like blasting 6H thinking you still might if you had the king of spades and 5 top tricks in the minors.

 

I would play responder to have 5 spades and 6 hearts and not self-sufficient hearts, with no slam interest. I've never heard of this interpretation before, but if I did play it, I would be self-aware enough to know that it is a non standard convention which I would never use without prior discussion.

[kenberg]

I might of been north on this hand. 3S is a misclick meaning to rebid 3H. I live with it rather than whine like a baby and ask for a redo. 4H,5H are an attempt to recover rather than play 3N or 4S down horribly. He doesn't promise a spade stop for 3NT since i bid them. Maybe he has Sxxx Hx DAKQxx CAKQx. 3NT is down on the mandatory spade lead, the unbid suit. 4S only makes because the spade spots drop. And he might have the previous hand. I don't know his spades are this good. I honestly don't get into delicate inference auctions on BBO with people I just met a few hands ago. I have a very natural style. Whatever the merits of this auction at a world championship with a partner you've played with for 20 years.

 

Looks like Billw figured it out. "On the other hand, 4♥-5♥ smells strongly of a "that's not what I meant" sequence." I can now say I'm friend of Billw.

 

While you are not a favorite to make 6H with the hand you give, it is not hopeless. You win the spade (good play), you cash three diamonds throwing two spades, you cash three clubs throwing the last spade. You ruff a spade with a small trump, lead a large trump and claim. Of course this requires that both minors be 4-3 but I have been in worse spots.

 

We will never know, but I still bet that the intention was to show the spade Ace and then invite slam in hearts. {I had thought hearts and spades, but when he pulled 4S to 5H I changed my mind. A mislick is possible but I doubt it, just ordinary mis-communication suffices to explain it ] I almost cooperated with this plan and raised to 6. I thought about it and didn't. We also will never know what I would have done if over 3NT he directly gone to 5H. I think I might have gone. At the very least, I think this would have clarified that the spade bid was an Ace and he was inviting slam in hearts.

 

Certainly his hand is such that a heart slam can be envisioned, so a message of 'I have the spade Ace and I am inviting slam in hearts" seems like a message he would like to send. It gives me the option. I opted wrong.

 

Anyway, I always am more interested in looking at the wisdom of my choices rather than those of pard. 6H was there, I did not bid it. If I had been confident of winning five heart tricks with one loser, of course I would have.I was assuming he had the spade Ace.

[ahydra]

Nothing wrong with asking for an undo if you misclick. It's why that feature exists.

 

wank, I have a question (genuine curiosity) about your proposed 5H over 3N. Why is this a general invite and not asking for good trumps in this situation? e.g. cf AKx K109xxxx x xx

 

ahydra

[kenberg]

Nothing wrong with asking for an undo if you misclick. It's why that feature exists.

 

wank, I have a question (genuine curiosity) about your proposed 5H over 3N. Why is this a general invite and not asking for good trumps in this situation? e.g. cf AKx K109xxxx x xx

 

ahydra

 

I am most definitely interested in wank's view but I will say a bit of my own. I think after 1D-1H-3C-3S-3NT, opener cannot be expected to have much of anything in hearts. It is true, or at least I assume it was true, that 3S showed something in spades else partner could have rebid hearts or supported one of my minors. Still, if my major suit values were in hearts instead of spades I think I would bid 4H over 3S, reasoning that if partner were all that enthusiastic about playing in NT he could have bid NT.

 

Could I have Qx in hearts and still bid 3NT over 3S? Maybe, but I am not so sure. These misfit hands usually play better in suits than in NT if we can find any sort of decent partial fit. If hearts are trump, partner can not only establish them he can also get to them.

 

Anyway, this is the sort of thing that went through my mind with the auction we had. I figured partner was not expecting much from me in hearts, but maybe he was hoping for more than the singleton deuce.

 

Anyway, I share your interest in just what 5H over 3NT would show or ask. I do think. taking the auction as a whole, it guarantees the ace of spades and asks for a simple choice between playing 5H and 6H, but beyond that I claim no certainty.

[wank]

yes opener's never going to have great hearts. considering you don't have many ways to set hearts as trumps and bid on, it's a bit of a waste to utilise 5h to differentiate between a narrow range of crappy holdings.

 

as for what 5h should show, it sets hearts as trumps and should have a spade control after 3S. you don't have the space for much science here.

 

fwiw some people play 1d-1M-2c as forcing. i don't know the logic behind that (i suspect it has something to do with opps never letting you play 2C when it's your optimal spot), or the follow-ups. it may or may not help on hands like this.

[Zelandakh]

I am most definitely interested in wank's view but I will say a bit of my own. I think after 1D-1H-3C-3S-3NT, opener cannot be expected to have much of anything in hearts. It is true, or at least I assume it was true, that 3S showed something in spades else partner could have rebid hearts or supported one of my minors.

This reasoning highlights one of the differences one sometimes sees between American and European thinking. For me, if I have no fit for a minor, no extra heart length and something in spades I can bid 3NT. So 3♠ would tend to deny something in spades in the first instance. It is a matter of philosophy. Presumably in your methods, a 3♦ rebid would not guarantee a diamond fit but might be made on, say, a 3523 hand with ♠xxx, thus making it more of a grope than a fit bid. That makes perfect sense but perhaps an alternative that might follow from that is for 3♠ to show a full diamond fit. That is possibly better than either natural method but also probably not possible for most pairs. In any case, bidding 3♠ and then taking 3NT out has to show something unusual, either in terms of slam-suitability, shape or controls held.

[akwoo]

This reasoning highlights one of the differences one sometimes sees between American and European thinking. For me, if I have no fit for a minor, no extra heart length and something in spades I can bid 3NT. So 3♠ would tend to deny something in spades in the first instance. It is a matter of philosophy. Presumably in your methods, a 3♦ rebid would not guarantee a diamond fit but might be made on, say, a 3523 hand with ♠xxx, thus making it more of a grope than a fit bid. That makes perfect sense but perhaps an alternative that might follow from that is for 3♠ to show a full diamond fit. That is possibly better than either natural method but also probably not possible for most pairs. In any case, bidding 3♠ and then taking 3NT out has to show something unusual, either in terms of slam-suitability, shape or controls held.

 

I don't think this is a difference between Americans and Europeans, but rather a difference between those for whom the principle of 4th suit artificial is widespread in their bridge community and those for whom it is not. I'm sure the average European LOL would not want to play 3♠ as anything but showing a fragment. Many would want to insist that it shows an actual 4 card suit.

 

Many not-too-serious players are uncomfortable with the idea of any artificial bids whatsoever, beyond the very basics of stayman, blackwood, and transfers. They don't want to use their precious limited brainpower to remember artificial bids at the table.

 

I'm pretty sure most American experts playing with another American expert would play it your way even without prior discussion (other than knowing each other by reputation). However, keep in mind that most players are not experts, and, moreover, the US has a tradition of pros who play with non-experts (and hence have to play non-expert methods) for money which seems much more widespread than in Europe.

[kenberg]

This reasoning highlights one of the differences one sometimes sees between American and European thinking. For me, if I have no fit for a minor, no extra heart length and something in spades I can bid 3NT. So 3♠ would tend to deny something in spades in the first instance. It is a matter of philosophy. Presumably in your methods, a 3♦ rebid would not guarantee a diamond fit but might be made on, say, a 3523 hand with ♠xxx, thus making it more of a grope than a fit bid. That makes perfect sense but perhaps an alternative that might follow from that is for 3♠ to show a full diamond fit. That is possibly better than either natural method but also probably not possible for most pairs. In any case, bidding 3♠ and then taking 3NT out has to show something unusual, either in terms of slam-suitability, shape or controls held.

 

Probably the first ting is that there are many auctions that I have not thoroughly thought out.

 

That being siad, let me say, as best I recal, what I thought at various points.It changed radically as the auction progressed.

 

1D-1H-3C-3S

 

I did not, at this point, take this as a serious effort to play in spades. It allowed me to bid 3NT if I so desired. and i did. I expected he "probably' had something in spades, mostly because he had to have something somewhere. If he had, say, xx in spades surely he had a better bid than 3S. So 3NT seems reasonable.

Oh. And when he bids 3S I assume he has five hearts. If he has only four hearts and does not fit either of my minors, it is hard to see why he would not simply bid 3NT. Unless his hand is too big for that, in which case he will tell me soon.

 

Ok, I bid 3NT, he bids 4H. Say what? This is new information so I will revise my thoughts. Now, yes, I figure I am being asked to choose between hearts and spades. He seems to like hearts, and if he only liked hearts, I would expect 3H over 3C. So I bid 4S.

It isn't that I thought my first opinion was in some way wrong systemically. At the time of the 3S, 3NT seemed right. When he then pulls to 4H, I think again.

 

So far, this seems normal to me.

 

But now he pulls 4S to 5H. Here I can see two views. I took it as roughly what he had. The spade ace nd a slam try in hearts. I was simply worried about the hearts. I expect good hearts, but still I have only the deuce. My purpose in posting this hand was (1) I thought it interesting and (2) I was satisfied with my bidding up until this point but I was 9and somewhat still am) uncertain as to whether I should have raised 5H to 6H. My hand is a bit better than needed for the jump shift. Not much, but some. But there is that one measly heart spot. I thin if the stiff were the j I would have bid 6. Maybe with the Ten.

 

But there has been a suggestion that 5H over 4S says "Glad to hear about the spade fit, i have the ace of hearts, can we make 8s?". This never occurred to me, and thinking about it now I still prefer my view that it was a slam try in hearts holding good hearts and the spade ace, but I can see the point of this other view.

 

When I can, I try to look ahead. But here, over 3S I just thought 3NT was most logical, after the pull to 4H I thought showing my preference to spades the most logical, and after 5H I thought I was to pass or bid 6H. So we were largely in sync. I do think that 5H over 3NT would have been better. With that heart suit a heart slam must be fairly likely. and 5H would, I think, have encouraged me to bid 6H unless I was really pessimistic.

 

You asked about what 3D over 3C would be. I would expect something of a diamond fit but not such that diamonds are firmly established as trump. For example, over 3D I, as opener, would bid 3H holding three hearts, and expect partner to take it as such. I also might bid 3NT over 3D with some hands. I would think of 3D as maybe we should play in diamonds, but let's not sign it in blood yet.

 

Added: Maybe the last thought of this post should refer back to the first. Even when I played more than I do now, and when I had a regular partner with whom I had extended discussions and agreements, this auction was not discussed in detail. When I say tha after partner's 3S I think he has five hearts, that does not mean that with some partners we have discussed it,. It doesn't even mean that I am sure I am right. It simply seems reasonable that after 1D-1H-3C partner might hope to play n hearts but not have the suit for a 3H bid and so would bid 3S to see what I do. Then, as we go forward, I update my opinion.

No doubt this sometimes leads to confusion. Bridge requires a sense of humor, an appreciation for the absurd.

[Zelandakh]

It sounds to me like our thinking is not so far apart Ken. :) I do not have any problem with the logic of your approach and the end result is getting to a sensible spot on what was a difficult hand for a pick-up partnership.

 

To akwoo, notwithstanding what you wrote, I have seen a difference between Americans and Europeans on BBF over a long period, with Americans typically thinking of the 4th suit more naturally than us on average. This is not a matter of experts vs non-experts but rather bidding philosphy and has knock-on effects sometimes, for example an American pair might use 2NT as a "tell me more" call with 2♠ natural but Europeans have 2♠ as the fourth suit and 2NT to show spade values. In the end the difference are not so important providing both agree and all of the hands are covered somehow.