4441 and 17 HCP

[Liversidge]

[hv=pc=n&w=skq64h8dak95ckq86&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1dp2dp]133|200[/hv]

 

We play weak no trump and over a 1 level suit response an opener's rebid of 1NT shows 15-17 HCP. Do I pass here? If I bid 2NT what strength am I showing?

[Cyberyeti]

2N is about this strength but not with a singleton heart.

 

Presumably 2N/3♣ responses would be natural not some form of raise, and the only options for partner to raise are 2/3♦.

 

Can game be on ? of course, AJx, xxx, Qxxx, J10x is a decent 5♦.

 

I'd bid 2♠, if partner bids 2N or 3♦ I will settle for 3♦, if he bids 3♣ I'm much more interested, the key is that he has nothing much in hearts and a maximum, 3N is unlikely to make.

[helene_t]

In a weak nt system I think 3d means he wants to be in game opposite 15 balanced. So 2d is just shy of that. This hand is worth a game try.

 

Cyber deserves ab upvote but I am on Android. Sorry

[1eyedjack]

I have encountered some weak NT partnerships who agree to respond 1NT on certain hands with concealed 4 card Diamond support. Usually these are combined with inverted minor raises and an unwillingness to choose the alternative 3D bid that leaves no room for enquiry. If not playing inverted raises, the incentive to use the 1N response in this manner dissipates somewhat, but I think that it is still playable to include some hands with D support in 1N, say a hand that would accept a 2N invitational raise/rebid by opener. That would allow you to make a courtesy 2D raise on dross and not get overboard. Otherwise the 2D raise has quite a wide range, necessitating a game try by opener on the stated hand in this example, but not without some risks opposite a minimum responder.

[Cyberyeti]

... Otherwise the 2D raise has quite a wide range, necessitating a game try by opener on the stated hand in this example, but not without some risks opposite a minimum responder.

 

If responder is minimum and you can't make 3♦, opps were very likely making 2♥ and might be able to get in the auction with a double or 2♥ bid if you pass.

[rmnka447]

I assume lacking any mention of inverted minors that 2 ♦ raise is 5-9 and at least 4 ♦.

 

The hand's too strong to pass -- 17 HCP that are working and 4 losers. So, I think 2 ♠ reverse is right at this point.

 

After a 2 ♦ raise, 2 NT has to show the 15-17 balanced hand. The only minimum range hands you'd open 1 ♦ are unbalanced, so NT can't be a minimum. If you hold the 18-19 balanced, then 3 NT would be the appropriate rebid over 2 ♦. Pass over 2 ♦ certainly shows minimum unbalanced. I'm not so sure what a 3 ♦ rebid would be.

 

2 ♠ isn't really a try to play in ♠ because the initial 2 ♦ response should deny a 4 card major. It's showing a stopper and should also carry the message that ♦ are a real suit.

 

But over 2 ♠, the questions are "What are the positive bids?" and "What is the sign off?". That could vary pair to pair.

[Zelandakh]

The hand's too strong to pass -- 17 HCP that are working and 4 losers. So, I think 2 ♠ reverse is right at this point.

I would agree with you (and CY + Helene) that 2♠ is right but not that it is a reverse. B-)

[zillahandp]

Difficult no point bidding spades p does not have four, 2 hts would ask for a stop but 3nt likely to be very risky, 3c seems safe but again asks for a stop , and shows 5 diamonds.if p bids 3nt over 3c 5d with only four losers, pass if p bids 3d. As acol does not handle 4441 very well some experts are startng to open 2nt on this sort of hand which can work well showing the righr sort of points and is good for finding the 44 fit in one suit esp a minor.

[zillahandp]

Also some people would open a club which has its merits with 17 as opposed to say a bigger hand with 19 when 2nt might be more popular. Maybe it depends on whether you are winnng and or vul.

[gordontd]

Difficult no point bidding spades p does not have four, 2 hts would ask for a stop

This doesn't seem consistent.

[Cyberyeti]

Difficult no point bidding spades p does not have four, 2 hts would ask for a stop but 3nt likely to be very risky, 3c seems safe but again asks for a stop , and shows 5 diamonds.if p bids 3nt over 3c 5d with only four losers, pass if p bids 3d. As acol does not handle 4441 very well some experts are startng to open 2nt on this sort of hand which can work well showing the righr sort of points and is good for finding the 44 fit in one suit esp a minor.

 

Most people show suits/stops rather than asking for them, 2♠ implies a lack of hearts which seems to be what you have.

[GrahamJson]

Nobody has mentioned 3H, which should show this sort of hand. Expert treatment is that a jump in a suit when a non jump would be forcing shows a shortage. I think you are just about strong enough to do that here. However you would need to have that agreement with partner or have confidence that he would understand the bid, so probably best avoided with a random BBO partner.

 

On another point, perhaps I am old fashioned but I don't think that 2D should 100% deny a four card major, particularly a heart suit. In some cases a raise might be better for tactical reasons rather than bid a poor suit. As Terence Reeses said "I see no point on bidding bad suits on bad hands when there is a sound alternative". However I agree that doesn't seem to be the BBO norm.

[zillahandp]

Ty cyber pls show us you source of stats please and computer analysis showing it is better.Or are you making a personal judgement.

[Zelandakh]

Ty cyber pls show us you source of stats please and computer analysis showing it is better.Or are you making a personal judgement.

Saying that most people playing a method such as this use natural continuations does not seem to me to be controversial. It is almost certainly true that the majority of better players use inverted minors here. Indeed CY himself does. In the same vein, HSGTs and LSGTs are much more common after 1M - 2M than SSGTs or TWGTs. It is irrelevant which method is more effective, this is just the way of the world. Given that you are championing a non-natural approach, why don't you provide us with the evidence that this is more commonly played than natural? That seems like the right way round...

[Cyberyeti]

Ty cyber pls show us you source of stats please and computer analysis showing it is better.Or are you making a personal judgement.

 

It's what's normally taught to beginners (certainly here and probably elsewhere too) and we're in the N/B forum.

 

PS- Zel's right, I play inverted minors with 2N/3♦ as preemptive raises, but I was tailoring replies to what I thought OP's raises were and the N/B forum.

[Caitlynne]

I am not sure what your agreement regarding 2D is, but it does not really matter. (For the moment, I will assume it is a standard raise - likely correct since you contemplated Pass in your question.)

 

All I know for sure is that, with a fine 17 HCP hand with a nice distributional feature (i.e., the heart singleton), I have to bid SOMETHING. 2S looks good. I have something good in spades and it is the most economical (i.e., flexible) forcing bid among the reasonably sane choices available.

 

If partner bids 2NT next, I will trot out 3C, very accurately describing my hand.

 

If partner retreats to 3D, I will try again with 4C. This is not clear, but I suspect that, if partner could not bid 2NT to suggest heart values, 4D should be safe.

[gwnn]

Cyber deserves ab upvote but I am on Android. Sorry

I upvoted him for you (also from Android).

[bkvaran]

3hj is splinter im My would ..... Alllmost exactly describes My hand.....

[bkvaran]

World, should IT be

[hrothgar]

Following 1m - 2m, many pairs play that a 2M rebid shows a stopper rather than showing shape.

This agreement is quite common playing inverted minors. I have definitely seen it used after a "normal" raise.

In this case, 2♠ is a perfectly reasonable bid.

 

Personally, I would bid 3♥ (a splinter raise in support of diamonds)

 

This accurately describes strength and will steer us clear of a bad 3NT if partner has weak hearts.

[Cyberyeti]

Following 1m - 2m, many pairs play that a 2M rebid shows a stopper rather than showing shape.

This agreement is quite common playing inverted minors. I have definitely seen it used after a "normal" raise.

In this case, 2♠ is a perfectly reasonable bid.

 

Personally, I would bid 3♥ (a splinter raise in support of diamonds)

 

This accurately describes strength and will steer us clear of a bad 3NT if partner has weak hearts.

 

3♥ can be too many, give partner something like Jx, KQJ, xxxx, Jxxx, not the worst hand in the world and you're in a hopeless 3N or 4♦.

[neilkaz]

I'd bid 2♠ taking a move towards game. If then PD rebids 3♦ I am done. If he rebids 2NT I will try 3♣ and then pass 3♦ unless he makes a stronger move.

[Cyberyeti]

I'd bid 2♠ taking a move towards game. If then PD rebids 3♦ I am done. If he rebids 2NT I will try 3♣ and then pass 3♦ unless he makes a stronger move.

 

I think 3♣ is how you bid this hand plus 2-4 points, I'd just bid 3♦.

 

The interesting question is what to do if he bids 3N over 2♠. I can only visualise one very specific hand type where 3N is better than 5♦. To have 9 tricks and 9 points or less, he needs a double heart stop, the diamonds need to run and he needs a black jack (with the 10 or a 5th diamond) so something like J10x, KQJ, Qxxx, xxx. There are many hands he might bid 3N on particularly at MP where 5♦ will be better like xx, AJx, xxxxx, Axx.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti raises the interesting question. In Standard English Acol (OP is in the UK), the 2D raise shows 6-9 HCP and tends to deny a four-card major.

 

The opponents appear to have at least 9 hearts between them. Their silence suggests that partner might be top of the range, but I am very worried that a single heart stop may not be enough. At least a 2 Spade bid should ensure that we play a 3NT contract from the right side to protect any heart holding in partner's hand. I would definitely pull a 2NT response to 3D and would be nervous passing a 3NT response.

[NickRW]

There are many hands he might bid 3N on particularly at MP where 5♦ will be better like xx, AJx, xxxxx, Axx.

 

I take your general point, but I am considering bidding 3♦ instead of 2 with that hand. Especially so given the Acol (4cM, weak NT) context, where a 1m opener tends to be unbal or 15+