Someone please teach me how TOXs work

[ahydra]

♠Axx ♥AQ10x ♦x ♣KQ10xx

 

Both sides vul, IMPs. 1D opening on your right (opps playing 4cM weak NT FWIW). The two choices are to X first, or to overcall 2C and follow up with X. What do you think is the best approach on this hand?

 

My first instinct was that you should overcall 2C:

• It eats more room
  
• When the bidding comes back to you at 2D (or if you're brave, 3D) you can X again quite comfortably, showing the shape and maximum overcall values
  
• If it's responder who's bust and partner has something, you have an easy raise of anything he bids to game
  

 

But bearing in mind a previous discussion I had on BBF about TOXs, and worried about losing a major-suit fit if partner didn't have much, I tried X first at the table, only to find myself a bit stuck after (1H)-1S; (p). 1S can be on four cards, so you can't really raise spades directly to more than 2S, which is a huge underbid.

 

So then...

• What's the minimum you'd expect for partner's 1S here?
  
• How forcing is 2D here - given that a prototypical hand for 2D would be say 19 BAL without any stop in diamonds, should it be GF opposite a free bid from partner?
  
• What about 2C - does that still promise the "big TOX type" hand (18+ HCP or similar, or GOSH) at this low level?
  
• Or do we just assume partner will have 5 spades almost all the time, because he might have responsive Xd with 4-4?
  

 

Thanks,

 

ahydra

[billw55]

Clear double for me.

[manudude03]

Easy double, and easy pass over 1S. 2D would still only be forcing for 1 round in my opinion, I wouldn't want to hang partner for bidding 1S on KJxx and out (and no, I don't think 1S promises 5)

[apollo1201]

Hi Ahydra. I have no issues Xing now and Xing again if the bidding comes back at 2/3 D. So bidding 2C has no clear advantage except maybe sometimes losing a major fit to play in 5-2/3 (on other occasions C will play better).

 

Partner's 1S is purely competitive with maybe 4-7 HCPs and 4 or 5 S, and probably less if a 6-bagger like QJxxxx and out, you can't remain silent with that much, can you? And it almost makes game facing your hand! With more stuff, partner is expected to jump or cue.

 

The answers to your other questions are less clear to me. I should probably discuss it with my partner, but I would consider a 2C bid not GF (F1 given I freely bid), while a 2D cue would (almost) be GF. The 2C bid could be a little weaker than the big TOX but it should be rare (opportunistic 16-17 HCP hand 3325 who preferred TOX to 2C? Or 3415 with some extras like yours?) But I'm not sure how it could gain facing a limited partner who could hold Qxxx Jxx Kxxx xx.

 

So here I would just raise to 2S and hope for the best. I am eager to hear what more advanced / prepared posters will say because it is blurred for me.

 

Last thing, in that sequence, partner's X is for penalties (anti-psychic, although it is more common for responder to "psych" a 1S bid in this situation), not TO. If you have S's just bid'em.

[SteveMoe]

♠Axx ♥AQ10x ♦x ♣KQ10xx

 

• What's the minimum you'd expect for partner's 1S here?
  
• How forcing is 2D here - given that a prototypical hand for 2D would be say 19 BAL without any stop in diamonds, should it be GF opposite a free bid from partner?
  
• What about 2C - does that still promise the "big TOX type" hand (18+ HCP or similar, or GOSH) at this low level?
  
• Or do we just assume partner will have 5 spades almost all the time, because he might have responsive Xd with 4-4?
  

 

Assuming

(1♦}-X-(1♥)-1♠

(P) - ??

 

1) The minimum for partner's 1♠ response to a TOX is 3-7 HCP and 4 ♠ cards. Matter of agreement. ♠Kxxxx ♥x ♦xxx ♣xxxx is a fair, stretching minimum. With ♠Kxxx ♥x ♦xxxx ♣xxxx not so much.

2) 2♦ by the doubler is the strongest rebid possible - usually showing 20+. If partner returns to their original suit ♠ then intervenor can pass. Any further action by intervenor is GF. the hand you show is too weak for this.

3) 2♣ would be 17-19 natural. Can ELC apply when we are not at an equal level and opponents have mentioned 2 suits already? Don't think so.

4) Whether a responsive double by partner shows 4 ♠ or fewer is again a matter for partnership agreement. Many play the free bid shows only 4 so the responsive double denies 4 ♠.

 

Regardless, you have a choice between pass and a simple raise to 2♠. Arguing for pass, you have a lot of power in their ♥ suit. On the positive side you have a 5-loser and working values. I'd raise to 2!S.

 

I side with those who prefer a TOX here because your hand can play in any of three suits, and it makes major suit exploration easier. 2♣ would imply a 6-card suit and an opening hand. Even with ♠Axx ♥AQ10 ♦xx ♣KQ10xx i prefer a double to 2♣.

[mikestar13]

Does anyone have a good method to distinguish three and four card spade support in a hand worth raising in this sequence? Support X/XX might be useful if opener bids or doubles 1♠, but what if he passes, as here?

[wank]

partner's limited to about 7 or a bad 8 points, less with a 5 card spade suit. just pass - you don't care if partner has 4 or 5 spades at the 1 level. you've described your hand nicely and by passing you're 95% telling partner you only have 3. if they compete with 2d you can consider doubling again - you don't have enough to make game, but you do have enough to fight harder for the part score considering your extra shape suitability (this would pretty much guarantee this exact shape - you'd only pass 1s and act again with a singleton diamond so you must be 3415 if you can't support spades).

 

as for what 1 spade from partner shows, it rather depends what double of 1 heart shows. doubling 1 heart traditionally shows 4 hearts, in which case 1 spade just shows 4+ spades. if you play that double of 1h is take-out, there are still 2 ways to play. you could play 1S as 5 and double as 4, to make doubler's decision easier at the 3 level, or you could play it as takeout denying 4 spades, something like a 2344 8 count where 1nt will very often be better than 2C.

 

as for the initial double as opposed to 2c, 'eating room' is a silly thing to talk about when you've probably got the best hand at the table. you should be more worried about the opps taking your room. if they do, it's much less of a catastrophe to miss your club fit than your major fit.

[mike777]

easy double

 

will pass 1s response by pard

[PhilG007]

♠Axx ♥AQ10x ♦x ♣KQ10xx

 

Both sides vul, IMPs. 1D opening on your right (opps playing 4cM weak NT FWIW). The two choices are to X first, or to overcall 2C and follow up with X. What do you think is the best approach on this hand?

 

My first instinct was that you should overcall 2C:

• It eats more room
  
• When the bidding comes back to you at 2D (or if you're brave, 3D) you can X again quite comfortably, showing the shape and maximum overcall values
  
• If it's responder who's bust and partner has something, you have an easy raise of anything he bids to game
  

 

But bearing in mind a previous discussion I had on BBF about TOXs, and worried about losing a major-suit fit if partner didn't have much, I tried X first at the table, only to find myself a bit stuck after (1H)-1S; (p). 1S can be on four cards, so you can't really raise spades directly to more than 2S, which is a huge underbid.

 

So then...

• What's the minimum you'd expect for partner's 1S here?
  
• How forcing is 2D here - given that a prototypical hand for 2D would be say 19 BAL without any stop in diamonds, should it be GF opposite a free bid from partner?
  
• What about 2C - does that still promise the "big TOX type" hand (18+ HCP or similar, or GOSH) at this low level?
  
• Or do we just assume partner will have 5 spades almost all the time, because he might have responsive Xd with 4-4?
  

 

Thanks,

 

ahydra

 

There's something everyone here (including the original poster) seems to have overlooked...what do you do if LHO comes into the bidding(?)

Suppose you double for takeout then LHO bids 3♦ Now the

situation has changed dramatically. You have 15 HCP but both opponents are in the auction. It all depends on what partner does. If he passes and the

3♦bid comes round to you,you are in a quandary...LHO has spoken and any overcall on this hand could be highly dangerous and you risk incurring a hefty penalty.

You are in unknown waters and,although it may seem cowardly,the best thing to do is PASS. At least you are giving away -110 at most you are risking -500 Sometimes the best

action to take is none at all(!) Sometimes you have to accept you will be gazumped but that is in the nature of the game.You win some.you lose some.

[sfi]

♠Axx ♥AQ10x ♦x ♣KQ10xx

 

Both sides vul, IMPs. 1D opening on your right (opps playing 4cM weak NT FWIW). The two choices are to X first, or to overcall 2C and follow up with X. What do you think is the best approach on this hand?

 

My first instinct was that you should overcall 2C:

• It eats more room
  
• When the bidding comes back to you at 2D (or if you're brave, 3D) you can X again quite comfortably, showing the shape and maximum overcall values
  
• If it's responder who's bust and partner has something, you have an easy raise of anything he bids to game
  

 

2C sounds about right, for all the reasons you quote and for the situation you found yourself in when you doubled (I would double 3D as well as two - this is a pretty good hand). This hand is worth more than one action so there is a real advantage to showing your hand as accurately as possible.

 

You're fairly stuck after the double. You could belong in 4S opposite KQxxx xx xxxx Jx, 3NT opposite xxxx xx Axx Axxx, a club slam opposite KQxx xx xxx Axxx, or a part score opposite wasted values. And it is hard to sort out.

 

As for your questions, apollo was pretty close to my understanding:

- 2C shows the double and bid hand, but is not FG

- 2D is FG

 

Partner can easily have four spades here (I would expect a responsive double to have three most of the time), but I would widen the range to something like 5-10. Basically a hand that would respond at the one level to an opening bid.

[zillahandp]

You are too strong tot double and being strong you do not need to take up room. The double shows a good hand opening strength plus and either two or three suits. If p bids a suit you have you can raise, use the Ltc for level but see later. If only two suits and p bids the ne you have not got you bid lower f the two you have interms of level first and rank second. Many people play x of a major guarantees the other one. If opps do not bid and p bids at the lowest possible level it shows nothing or virtually nothing so with 8+ p jumps a level or bids at lowest lvel over opps if they bid this shows 8 ish plus length as always counts for points on the ltc basis. Zar points are ideal in this situation. Your instinct to overcall is completely wrong, ovecalls are weak/ defensive/ suggest cmpetition or sacrifice or lead direction

X the bidding nts shows a big hand with the ops suit 18? As p can be weak and have few or no entries so beware but it is stronger tha a nt ovecall.

[zillahandp]

X tthen biddng nts (las sntence

[zillahandp]

And if it goes 2d on your left p p you can x agan to force p t bid r cnvert to a penalt x by passing with 5diamnds

[alok c]

2C,which will allow partner for a free/competitive bidding.

[gnasher]

What do you think is the best approach on this hand?

Double looks obvious. If you start with 2♣ and LHO raises diamonds, it will be hard to find a 4-4 major-suit fit whilst not risking playing a 4-3 fit. For example, after

1

♦

dbl 3

♦

pass

pass dbl pass

Do you want partner to bid a 4-card heart suit? If so, what about a 4-card spade suit?

 

What's the minimum you'd expect for partner's 1S here?

KJxx xxx xxxx xx

 

How forcing is 2D here - given that a prototypical hand for 2D would be say 19 BAL without any stop in diamonds, should it be GF opposite a free bid from partner?

I think it should be forcing only for one round, because a balanced 18-19 is some way from making game opposite a 1♠ advance.

 

What about 2C - does that still promise the "big TOX type" hand (18+ HCP or similar, or GOSH) at this low level?

I don't agree with the premise implied by "still". In the sequence

1

♦

dbl pass 1

♠

pass

You should be able to bid 2♣ with a 3415 16-count or so. I think 2♣ implies that hand-type in this auction too. With a hand that's too strong to overcall, you can jump-shift or cue-bid.

 

Or do we just assume partner will have 5 spades almost all the time, because he might have responsive Xd with 4-4?

I've never played a responsive double here, but if I did I'd use double to show four spades and 1♠ to show five.

[creatbid]

There's something everyone here (including the original poster) seems to have overlooked...what do you do if LHO comes into the bidding(?)

Suppose you double for takeout then LHO bids 3♦......

 

The original poster focused mainly on the best bid after this auction 1♦-X-P-1♠-P-？. You shall open a new topic if you want to discuss your own issue.

[zillahandp]

Alok no it wont how is p going t show a four card major, sry wrong wrong.

[rmnka447]

♠Axx ♥AQ10x ♦x ♣KQ10xx

 

I tried X first at the table, only to find myself a bit stuck after (1H)-1S; (p). 1S can be on four cards, so you can't really raise spades directly to more than 2S, which is a huge underbid.

 

So then...

• What's the minimum you'd expect for partner's 1S here?
  
• How forcing is 2D here - given that a prototypical hand for 2D would be say 19 BAL without any stop in diamonds, should it be GF opposite a free bid from partner?
  
• What about 2C - does that still promise the "big TOX type" hand (18+ HCP or similar, or GOSH) at this low level?
  
• Or do we just assume partner will have 5 spades almost all the time, because he might have responsive Xd with 4-4?
  

 

 

Double seems right with this hand. With so many major cards, you want to be able to find a major fit if one exists. You do have 3+ in each major.

 

If LHO would have passed, 1 ♠ would show say 0-7 HCP and presumably 4 ♠. 2 ♠ would show about 8-10 HCP and at least 4 ♠ -- the topside limiting factor being exactly what you play as the bottom limit on advancer's 2 ♦ cue. With LHO bidding, the only thing that changes is that partner isn't forced to bid, so the bottom end of the uncontested 1 ♠ response disappears and a 1 ♠ now guarantees 4+ ♠ and something like 4-7 HCP.

 

2 ♦ still shows a big hand, presumably GF hand.

 

2 ♣ shows an overcall hand too strong for a simple overcall with the emphasis on the ♣ suit -- Ax Kxx xx AKQ10xx. With something like AQx xx xxx AKQ10x, you stuck for a bid as you'd be uncomfortable doubling and rebidding ♣ at possibly the 3 level, so you bid 2 ♣ and hope to be able to show your extras later.

 

You can't assume that partner necessarily has 5 ♠, but with your extras should probably raise anyhow with 3. But in doing so, it doesn't hurt to consider how a 4-3 (Moysian) fit might play. The overriding factor is whether the opponents can force the long trump (4 card) hand to trump and lost control of the trump suit/hand. Here you've got a stiff ♦ enabling short trump hand ruffs and plenty of ♥ honors, so forcing the long trump hand is unlikely.

[miamijd]

First issue: either X or 2c could work out well.

 

Advantages of X:

You find your major suit fit, which is necessary to beat the opponents' likely diamond fit

 

Advantages of 2c:

If RHO has a hand that has to make a negative double, you are likely in good shape (either partner has diamonds or else partner might be able to raise to 3c, in which case the opponents are apt to wind up in a 4-3 major fit at the three level with half the strength)

 

If RHO bids 2d and it comes back around to you, you'll have an easy X. If you X first and it goes 2d back to you, you'll have to X again, which really doesn't show your hand quite as well.

 

I think X is slightly better in the long run. Note that if your clubs and spades were reversed, you should bid 1s, not X. The same is true if you hold 4513. Bid 1h; don't X (unless your h are just awful).

 

Partner's 1s call: Ought to show a minimum responding hand (5-9 or so). With a horrible hand, partner should pass.

 

2d rebid after X: Yes, this ought to be more or less a game force. If you have 18-19 and partner has 6 or so, that ought to make game.

 

2c rebid after X: Yes, this still shows the big hand with a focus on clubs. You aren't strong enough for this, and your clubs aren't good enough. 2c here should also be a game force, because 18 + a minimum responding hand should be enough for game. If you can't find a fit or a d stop, I think you can stop in 4c.

 

How many spades does partner have? He guarantees 4. No, he would not make a "responsive double" with 4. First, if you play responsive doubles in this sequence, that would show spades and clubs. Partner might not have clubs. Second, if you play responsive X here, consider switching. It's too easy for the opponents to make psychic 1h bids if you can't smoke them out with a X that shows hearts.

 

What should you do at this point? You're a bit stuck, I think. If partner has five decent spades and the Jc, you have a game. If partner has Qxxx xx KQxx xxx, you have diddly squat.

 

I think I would compromise between a 2d bid (which is an overbid, given that the Qh is likely useless) and pass, which is a decided underbid, and bid a somewhat strange-looking 2s. Partner's hand is limited to a narrow range, and he'll tend to go forward with 5+ spades but be cautious with only 4 (obviously, the more spades, the more offense).

 

What happened at the table?

[sfi]

So I seem to be out on a limb by myself here with a 2C overcall. What auction are you imagining being faced with next round where doubling immediately is better than overcalling with the intention of doubling next round?

 

The only one I can see is a big preempt by opponents, but if they really think they have a fit I'm prepared to double most levels if that's the case.

 

What am I missing?

[creatbid]

The most important is to find the fit with your partner not to just care yourself unless your suit is self-sufficiently strong. Edited February 15, 2016 by diana_eva

[wank]

2c p p p is the worst sequence for a 2c overcall and, no, it's not uncommon.

[ahydra]

This has quite possibly been the most educational BBF thread I've ever posted. Many thanks all.

 

What happened at the table?

 

After (1D)-X-(1H)-1S; (p), I bid 2S, 3D from LHO, passed back to me and I jumped to 4S - having thought that 2S was a pathetic underbid on the first time because, not having had the benefit of this thread, I thought that 1S would promise 5. Partner had ♠KQxx and out in, I think, a 4342 and tried valiantly but ended up one off.

 

The key point for me to realise here was that 1S is limited to about 5-8 - hence I should (just about) be inviting, but not blasting game. One thing though is that we like to play 2S as pre-emptive in this sequence (so we would bid 2S in this auction with pretty much any TOX with 4-card support). Hence my question on 2D - my first instinct was that it should be GF, but perhaps just playing it as F1 with extra strength is useful to show, amongst other things, a 3-card raise like this one?

 

ahydra

[PhantomSac]

2c p p p is the worst sequence for a 2c overcall and, no, it's not uncommon.

 

100 % this.

 

Just for the record since I find myself agreeing with almost everything you post lately I was surprised you said this:

 

partner's limited to about 7 or a bad 8 points, less with a 5 card spade suit

 

I know euros jump more aggressively than americans in this spot, but I would have thought that range is aggressive even for a euro even when it's not a free bid of 1S. That range seems way off to me for a free bid, you imply you will jump with an average 8 count and 4 spades. I can see this view when it's not a free bid and the 1S bid can be 0-whatever (I would still be a point heavier but w/e) but it seems really unnecessary when you are making a free bid.