argument on vugraph

[luke warm]

just kibbed this and some division on south's bidding... what do you think?

 

[hv=d=n&v=a&n=sk83ht9dakq85ckq4&w=sj652h62dj4caj853&e=saqhqj873dt7ct962&s=st974hak54d9632c7]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1NT   Pass  2♣

 Pass  2♦    Pass  3NT

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

personally i see nothing wrong with the 2C bid... the opening lead (a small heart) would have allowed 3nt to make, however declarer played a top heart for down 2

[hrothgar]

just kibbed this and some division on south's bidding... what do you think?

 

[hv=d=n&v=a&n=sk83ht9dakq85ckq4&w=sj652h62dj4caj853&e=saqhqj873dt7ct962&s=st974hak54d9632c7]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

- 1NT Pass 2♣

Pass 2♦ Pass 3NT

Pass Pass Pass

personally i see nothing wrong with the 2C bid... the opening lead (a small heart) would have allowed 3nt to make, however declarer played a top heart for down 2

(Please note) I am assuming a "standard" 15-17 NT range

 

The 2♣ strikes me as a gamble.

 

On the plus side: If partner has a 4 card major, my hand has enormous playing strength. Aces and Kings are great for suit contracts. I have a LOT of ruffing power. In short, Life is good...

 

On the down side. If partner doesn't have a 4 card major, my hand just got a lot worse. I don't have many slow stoppers. Partner is highly likely to hold a 5332 pattern with long clubs where my stiff devalues his hand. Equally significant, I have a 7 count. Even if partner has a maximum opener, game in NT is dicey.

 

Playing IMPs, red, I'd bid 2♣. However, I'd like some way to invite game in NT if partner denied a major suit fit...

 

Probably a good ahnd for a simulation. I'd be interested in explictly knowing

 

1. The frequency of a 4 card fit in a major

2. The frequency of a 5332 pattern with long clubs

[luke warm]

good points, richard... after 2C/2D, what are the thoughts on passing?

[pclayton]

If playing garbage stayman, 2♣ is risk-free. If this hand catches a fit, I'd raise to game, unless its MPs, where I'd only make a push to 3.

 

If 2♣ isn't garbage, then it carries some risk, but I'd still try stayman and maybe "lie" about the 5th heart with a 2♥ call over 2♦. This hand is really suit oriented, and I don't like a 2N rebid on these cards. You can't pass a 2♦ rebid, as pard can be 3325.

 

I think the North hand is closer to a 2N opening than a 1N opening with that diamond suit. South ended up smelling like a rose with the gross overbid of 3N.

 

Jimmy - by the way - 3N is cold double dummy - even with the ♥Q lead.

[hotShot]

If the NT range is 16-18, 7 HCP for Stayman is normal i guess.

I agree that the hand is worse in NT, but not too bad.

 

♠T9xx with any honour at partners hand and the ♠'s are save

♥AKxx is two tricks

Partner holds 7+ cards in the minors, holding 4 ♦ might just help.

[luke warm]

you're right phil, it is... this was played earlier, defalco/garozzo were e/w... south's 3nt bid got a lot of comments (as did his 2c bid)...

[whereagles]

2C is obvious at imps. Opposite a max and fit, 4M should be a good contract. I won't even mention North having 5 cards in a maj :)

[Guest Jlall]

2C seems pretty clear to me. Can pass 2D and raise a major suit to game. Of course, I would never even consider opening 1N with the north hand if it's 15-17.

[Gerben42]

I agree with Justin. My sequence is 1N - 2C - 2D - PASS.

The north hand is beyond a maximum 1NT opener if it's 15 - 17, so in fact my sequence would be 1D - 1H - 2NT - 3NT without interference, although some easts might disagree.

[hrothgar]

2C seems pretty clear to me. Can pass 2D and raise a major suit to game. Of course, I would never even consider opening 1N with the north hand if it's 15-17.

This is the second person that I've seen suggesting passing a 2♦ response...

This really strikes me as poor bridge.

 

I'm willing to bid garbage stayman on a BAD 4441 under the assumption that 1NT won't play well. However, this is a GOOD 4441...

 

Would anyone be willing to run a simulation...

 

I'll add in a third variable to the mix:

 

Please provide:

 

1. The percentage chance that opener has a 4 card major

 

2. The conditional probability that opener has a 5 card club suit given that he has no 4 card major

 

3. The conditional PDF defining opener's diamond length given that he has no 4 card major...

[Guest Jlall]

2C seems pretty clear to me. Can pass 2D and raise a major suit to game. Of course, I would never even consider opening 1N with the north hand if it's 15-17.

This is the second person that I've seen suggesting passing a 2♦ response...

This really strikes me as poor bridge.

 

I'm willing to bid garbage stayman on a BAD 4441 under the assumption that 1NT won't play well. However, this is a GOOD 4441...

Umm, there are other reasons to bid 2C. The obvious reason here being to try to get to a red major suit game at imps and not play 1N. With partner having responded 2D, the goal now is trying to maximize your potential to go plus since I would consider it very unlikely that i have a game. So I would think 2N would deliver a net negative result. 2D will often play well in the 4-3 fit. The 4-2 will probably not make, but that is the gamble youre taking in order to find a major suit game. I'm willing to take that gamble. But saying that the only reason to bid stayman and then pass 2D is because I'm afraid 1N won't make is just plain wrong.

[fred]

2C seems pretty clear to me. Can pass 2D and raise a major suit to game. Of course, I would never even consider opening 1N with the north hand if it's 15-17.

I agree with this completely.

 

Even if you don't open 1NT when you have a 5-card major, the chances of partner having a 4-card major when he opens 1NT are in the range of 50%. A simple (and not accurate) way to see this is that 2 of 4 4333 patterns, 10 of 12 4432 patterns, and 0 of 6 5332 patterns contain a 4-card major. That's 12 of 22 patterns. While it is true that not all patterns are equally likely and that your stiff club increases the chances that partner has club length, the chances of partner having a 4-card major must still be pretty good.

 

If partner denies a 4-card major with 2D, my judgment suggests that passing is more likely to lead to a plus score than the alternatives of 2H or 2NT.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Walddk]

If partner denies a 4-card major with 2D, my judgment suggests that passing is more likely to lead to a plus score than the alternatives of 2H or 2NT.

Unless you play that 2♥ shows 4-4 in the majors (pass or correct). This is Garozzo's original treatment which I play with some partners.

 

So what do I do with an invitational 4-5 or 5-4 hand? With 4-5 I transfer to hearts and bid 2♠ (invitational). With 5-4 I bid Stayman followed by 2♠ (invitational again).

 

If your methods allow you to bid 2♥ (4-4), 2♣ is surely with the odds on the actual hand. 2♠ would then be the final contract.

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

I don't understand why one would bid 2H as opposed to pass 2D. Even if it can be bid with 4-4...think of pards possible shapes.

 

3325--2H best

3235--wash

2335--wash

2245--2D best

2254--2D best

3244--2D best

2344--2D best

3352--2D best

3253--2D best

2353--2D best

 

Basically when you bid 2H you will get to a 7 card fit except on a bad day when you reach a 6 card fit.

 

When you pass 2D you get to a 7 card fit on a bad day, a 6 card fit on a really bad day, and an 8 or 9 card fit usually. I just can't see how 2H can be better than pass.

[Walddk]

I don't understand why one would bid 2H as opposed to pass 2D. Even if it can be bid with 4-4...think of pards possible shapes.

 

3325--2H best

3235--wash

2335--wash

2245--2D best

2254--2D best

3244--2D best

2344--2D best

3352--2D best

3253--2D best

2353--2D best

 

Basically when you bid 2H you will get to a 7 card fit except on a bad day when you reach a 6 card fit.

 

When you pass 2D you get to a 7 card fit on a bad day, a 6 card fit on a really bad day, and an 8 or 9 card fit usually. I just can't see how 2H can be better than pass.

On the actual hand with 4 diamonds I agree, Justin. I should have said 4432, 4423 or 4414. Then I think it's nice that 2♥ shows 44 in the majors.

 

Roland

[Walddk]

Basically when you bid 2H you will get to a 7 card fit except on a bad day when you reach a 6 card fit.

That is not true though. In the unlikely event that partner opened 1NT on 2254 or 2245, he will correct to 2NT over 2♥. So a 7 card fit is guaranteed if opener passes or bids 2♠. As you point out yourself, it is not if you pass 2♦.

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

so with xxxxx xxxxx x xx how do you bid over 1N roland?

[Fluffy]

with 5-5 there is no big problem, just transfer 1 and pass.

[Elianna]

with 5-5 there is no big problem, just transfer 1 and pass.

How do you plan on finding partner's 3card suit vs. his 2 card suit (or a good 3 vs. a bad 3, or even 4 vs. 3 or 4 vs. 2). Your psychic powers must be greater than mine.

[mike777]

so with xxxxx xxxxx x xx how do you bid over 1N roland?

Am I missing something, is this not perfect for garbage stayman?

1NT=2C

2D=2H (4-4) WEAK

 

AS ROLAND MENTIONS

TRF H AND BID 2S WITH INVITE 5-4 OR

STAYMAN AND BID 2S WITH INVITE 4-5.

 

P bids his 3 card major.

[Guest Jlall]

Am I missing something, is this not perfect for garbage stayman?

1NT=2C

2D=2H (4-4) WEAK

 

AS ROLAND MENTIONS

TRF H AND BID 2S WITH INVITE 5-4 OR

STAYMAN AND BID 2S WITH INVITE 4-5.

 

P bids his 3 card major.

well roland said with 22(54) pard corrects to 2N. This is obviously a problem if you bid garbage stayman with a 5-5 yarb.

[Walddk]

so with xxxxx xxxxx x xx how do you bid over 1N roland?

I bid 2♣ followed by 2♥ over 2♦. If I play with you where 22 in the majors may be the rule rather than the exception I will just pick one of the majors and transfer. I can't remember when I or my partners last opened 1NT with 2254 or 2245.

 

2♥ is not invitational. In an earlier post I described how I invite with 5-4 or 4-5.

 

Roland

[Guest Jlall]

whether or not 2-2 in the majors is the rule or the exception is irrelevant since we are trying to decide the best course for a hand that DID open 2-2 in the majors to follow. Should they bid 2N or pass. I just really cant imagine bidding 2N with this hand if pard can have 4-5 or 5-5 yarborough. Pard was presumably trying to get out of 1N, so you have successfully retreated to 2N. It seems that the only time 2N will be a winner is if partner has some values and 4-4 in the majors, otherwise it will be a loser.

[luke warm]

well (as my 2nd post probably indicated) i'd have bid 2♣ also, and i'd have passed the 2♦ bid... most seem to agree