canape with precision

[Shugart23]

Partner and I are learning Canapé and are having pretty good success after 6 weeks thus far ( but we have a long way to go) We are starting with Ken Rexford's MICS book as the basis and there are limited published resources that I can find on the topic where the system needs to also be ACBL compliant

 

I am looking for suggested responses when bidding has gone 1H or 1S by Partner and is doubled (takeout)and now it is your turn to bid..

 

Blue Team Club system apparently uses the redouble to show 10+ and other bids to be limiting and natural, but this may be 'old=fashioned' thinking

 

Partner and I were using a transfer scheme of bids over the double when we were opening 5 card Majors, but this doesn't feel right where Partner may have opened a 4 card Major and also has a hidden 5 or 6 card suit.

 

Can I get a suggested scheme of responses for me to study and consider , where bidding has gone 1M - X - ?

 

Thank you

[hrothgar]

Partner and I are learning Canapé and are having pretty good success after 6 weeks thus far ( but we have a long way to go) We are starting with Ken Rexford's MICS book as the basis and there are limited published resources that I can find on the topic where the system needs to also be ACBL compliant

 

I am looking for suggested responses when bidding has gone 1H or 1S by Partner and is doubled (takeout)and now it is your turn to bid..

 

Blue Team Club system apparently uses the redouble to show 10+ and other bids to be limiting and natural, but this may be 'old=fashioned' thinking

 

Partner and I were using a transfer scheme of bids over the double when we were opening 5 card Majors, but this doesn't feel right where Partner may have opened a 4 card Major and also has a hidden 5 or 6 card suit.

 

Can I get a suggested scheme of responses for me to study and consider , where bidding has gone 1M - X - ?

 

Thank you

 

Here's what I would recommend after 1S - (X)

 

4S = to play

4H = to play

4D = Splinter

4C = splinter

3N = Defensively oriented raise to 4M establish a forcing pass at the 5 level

3S = value raise. 4 card support

3H = Fit showing jump. 5+ Hearts and 4 Spades

3D = Fit showing jump, 5+ Diamonds and 4 Spades

3C = Fit showing jump, 5+ Clubs and 4 Spades

2N = limit raise or better in Spades

2S = Preemptive

2H = Defensively oriented raise to 2S, 3 card support (if partner has a 4 bagger, double their 3 level contract)

2D = Xfer to hearts (could include a 3 card limit raise)

2C = Xfer to Diamonds (could include 3 card limit raise)

1N = to play

XX = Xfer to clubs (could include 3 card limit raise)

 

Please note: You are going to be immediately bidding to the 2 level with 3 piece support and bidding to the 3 level with 4 card support.

 

Make damn sure that you are good at playing your Moysians. Equally significant, you want to be going for blood if you are in a 4-3 at the two level and the opponent's balance. A lot of your best results are going to come from bad balancing decisions by the opps. You want to be doubling aggressively. (and you're going to want to maximize these results to offset those occasions where you're in a LAW breaking 3M contract)

[Shugart23]

Thanks that is similar to what we do with 5 card Majors but I am wondering about the structure where partner is likely to have a 5 or 6 card suit and only a 4 card Major......so playing standard American where you have 5 Spades and say 4 Diamonds, the structure makes sense.....but if you are playing canapé and have 4 Spades and 6 Diamonds it doesn't 'feel' right.....

 

Say bidding goes 1S-X - ? an you hold Axx, Kxxxx, Jxx,xx SO you might bid 2D (transfer to Hearts) and then rebid the Spades to Play and miss your 8 or 9 card Diamond fit

 

Maybe Blue Team has it right where the redouble is strong and gives Opener the green light to canapé.....I just don't know

[hrothgar]

Thanks that is similar to what we do with 5 card Majors but I am wondering about the structure where partner is likely to have a 5 or 6 card suit and only a 4 card Major......so playing standard American where you have 5 Spades and say 4 Diamonds, the structure makes sense.....but if you are playing canapé and have 4 Spades and 6 Diamonds it doesn't 'feel' right.....

 

Say bidding goes 1S-X - ? an you hold Axx, Kxxxx, Jxx,xx SO you might bid 2D (transfer to Hearts) and then rebid the Spades to Play and miss your 8 or 9 card Diamond fit

 

***** happens

 

This type of opening style is all about getting to an acceptable contract as quickly as possible, at the cost of potentially missing your best fit.

 

FWIW, with the hand in question, I would never chose to show the heart suit.

 

1. If you show Hearts and then show spade support, you are showing a much stronger hand

2. There has already been a takeout double. RHO almost certainly has 4 hearts. Why suggest a heart contract to partner when you have a Spade fit? Plus, you can always pray that the opponents play in Hearts

3. You don't particularly want a heart lead

 

With this hand, I am going to bid 2H, showing a good raise to 2S with some defense.

(I prefer an immediate 2S to a transfer to Hearts)

[Shugart23]

***** happens

 

This type of opening style is all about getting to an acceptable contract as quickly as possible, at the cost of potentially missing your best fit.

 

FWIW, with the hand in question, I would never chose to show the heart suit.

 

1. If you show Hearts and then show spade support, you are showing a much stronger hand

2. There has already been a takeout double. RHO almost certainly has 4 hearts. Why suggest a heart contract to partner when you have a Spade fit? Plus, you can always pray that the opponents play in Hearts

3. You don't particularly want a heart lead

 

With this hand, I am going to bid 2H, showing a good raise to 2S with some defense.

(I prefer an immediate 2S to a transfer to Hearts)

 

 

Yeah, my example was bad....I agree I don't want a Heart lead, nor ......the way partner and I play, the transfer to Hearts first and then the Spade rebid is weaker than the transfer first into Spades and then the rebid of Hearts with the former being suggestion of a lead and not a suit. Swap the A and K in my example, and I may want the Heart lead.

 

I also agree s**t happens, but I still think with the Opener having a longer suit in a higher frequency of hands using canapé bidding than standard, this type of scheme is going to cause more trips to the bathroom.....

[Zelandakh]

Take hrothgar's advice on this one. He has a lot of experience with this kind of system and to be honest the whole point about it is applying pressure and hitting the opps when they step out. Weaker opps will step out often but it is often difficult even for better players to make the right decisions consistently. If you are not willing to take on the risks involved, you are probably better off going back to a 5 card major system.

[Shugart23]

Take hrothgar's advice on this one. He has a lot of experience with this kind of system and to be honest the whole point about it is applying pressure and hitting the opps when they step out. Weaker opps will step out often but it is often difficult even for better players to make the right decisions consistently. If you are not willing to take on the risks involved, you are probably better off going back to a 5 card major system.

 

I am not disputing the advice at all but I am thinking there may be better alternatives...There is limited material on this topic in a canapé system and what Hrothgar is suggesting is what I do currently, or nearly so This is why I posted in the expert section..

 

.....But here is what I am considering.....suppose you have a Diamond-Spade canapé hand (4-5 or 4-6 distribution)...you Open 1D and get Doubled, while the rest of the room opens 1S and does not get doubled....Now suppose your partner has a fairly weak hand...maybe 3-4 Diamonds, maybe a singleton or doubleton Spade...The rest of the room in your direction is competing in Spades while you and your partner are screwing around with Diamonds and getting a low board. It seems like the transfer method of dealing with a take out double is principally tailored to 5 card Major Openings...

 

When one opens a 5 card Major, there is probably a very small chance, you have a longer side suit...When one opens Canape, I think I read that there is a 40% chance that Opener has a longer side suit....I think when a canapé Opener is doubled for take out, there needs to be an emphasis on exploring for the possible or probable better fit ..

 

Maybe I am daft in my thinking on this.....Hrothgar, are you a predominantly canapé player or a 5 card Major opener ?

[hrothgar]

Maybe I am daft in my thinking on this.....Hrothgar, are you a predominantly canapé player or a 5 card Major opener ?

 

When I have a "serious" partnership, we are almost inevitably playing some form of MOSCITO. With this said and done, its been a few years since I have played seriously (which has quite a bit to do with the fact that MOSCITO is banned in the US). This days, when I play its largely at our game at lunch where I am stuck playing 5 card majors.

 

FWIW, the version of MOSCITO that I play is based on a majors first opening style where

 

2C shows 6+ clubs

1N = 11 - 14 balanced

1S = unbalanced with 4+ Diamonds

1H = 4+ Spades

1D = 4+ Hearts

 

Opener will normally chose to show a 4 card major in preference to a longer minor, but does have the option to open 2C or 1S with a 6+ card minor and a very weak 4 card holding in the major.

[Shugart23]

Partner and I are playing MICS (canapé) What do you (or anyone) suggest I do when I hear partner open 1D and it get's doubled and I have a singleton Spade in my hand and 8-11 HCP ? I 'know' she is sitting across from me with 6 Spades

[hrothgar]

Partner and I are playing MICS (canapé) What do you (or anyone) suggest I do when I hear partner open 1D and it get's doubled and I have a singleton Spade in my hand and 8-11 HCP ? I 'know' she is sitting across from me with 6 Spades

 

I don't know what hand types a MICS 1♦ opening promises / denies, nor their relative frequencies)

(This would be a useful thing to know)

 

In an ideal world, can you provide a Dealer script so I can play around with the opening? Barring this, a set of 100 or so 1D openers would be good.

If neither of these is possible a written description might suffice.

[Shugart23]

I don't know what hand types a MICS 1♦ opening promises / denies, nor their relative frequencies)

(This would be a useful thing to know)

 

In an ideal world, can you provide a Dealer script so I can play around with the opening? Barring this, a set of 100 or so 1D openers would be good.

If neither of these is possible a written description might suffice.

 

1D opening is 10-15 HCP and shows a)long Diamonds...b)long Clubs.....c)5+ Spades and 4+ Diamonds...or d) 5+ Hearts and 4+ Diamonds

[hrothgar]

1D opening is 10-15 HCP and shows a)long Diamonds...b)long Clubs.....c)5+ Spades and 4+ Diamonds...or d) 5+ Hearts and 4+ Diamonds

 

Still doesn't tell me that that much. For example, is the following hand a 1♦ opening or 2♣?

 

♠ KQx

♥ xxx

♦ x

♣ AKxxxx

 

What about

 

♠ KQx

♥ x

♦ KQxxx

♣ AKxx

[Shugart23]

Still doesn't tell me that that much. For example, is the following hand a 1♦ opening or 2♣?

 

♠ KQx

♥ xxx

♦ x

♣ AKxxxx

 

What about

 

♠ KQx

♥ x

♦ KQxxx

♣ AKxx

The first hand is opened 1D because you have a decent 6 card Club suit....The second hand is opened 1C because it is 16 Plus HCP...but turn the KQx of Spades to Jxx and you open it 2D.....2D hands show both Minors..usually 5-5 but can get away with 54 sometimes

[Shugart23]

The first hand is opened 1D because you have a decent 6 card Club suit....The second hand is opened 1C because it is 16 Plus HCP...but turn the KQx of Spades to Jxx and you open it 2D.....2D hands show both Minors..usually 5-5 but can get away with 54 sometimes

 

2C openings show 3 suit hands...ala mini-Roman

[Shugart23]

Maybe the answer is, if partner opens 1 of a Major and is doubled, use the scheme you described above since you know at least partner has 4 cards in the Major.. If partner's artificial Diamond bid is doubled, perhaps you simply ignore the double and bid like you normally would have in the absence of the double

[hrothgar]

Maybe the answer is, if partner opens 1 of a Major and is doubled, use the scheme you described above since you know at least partner has 4 cards in the Major.. If partner's artificial Diamond bid is doubled, perhaps you simply ignore the double and bid like you normally would have in the absence of the double

 

I don't play systems where I don't have some known anchor suit.

I really can't give much practical advice over your 1♦ opening.

 

Sorry

[PrecisionL]

I don't play systems where I don't have some known anchor suit.

I really can't give much practical advice over your 1♦ opening.

 

Sorry

 

I AGREE, too many possibilities in the 1♦ opening. We gave up the 2♣ mini-Roman hand, therefore 1♦ is always 4 or more ♦s. Minimum 4441 hands can be handled with a 1 bid. Sometimes the best contract is 1NT.

[Shugart23]

Precision L...I know you play a strong club canapé system....when your partner's 1H or 1S is doubled , do you use a transfer scheme as has been suggested?

[PrecisionL]

Precision L...I know you play a strong club canapé system....when your partner's 1H or 1S is doubled , do you use a transfer scheme as has been suggested?

 

No, we do not use a transfer scheme over opponents takeout double.

 

Partner usually has (a) balanced hand with 10-13 hcp (we play a 14-16 NT), or (b) canape with longer minor, or © 6-cd or very good 5-cd major, or (d) 3 suited with or without 4-cd spades.

[Shugart23]

No, we do not use a transfer scheme over opponents takeout double.

 

Partner usually has (a) balanced hand with 10-13 hcp (we play a 14-16 NT), or (b) canape with longer minor, or © 6-cd or very good 5-cd major, or (d) 3 suited with or without 4-cd spades.

 

so when bidding goes 1H -(x) - ?, what are your bids? what is a redouble ?

[PrecisionL]

so when bidding goes 1H -(x) - ?, what are your bids? what is a redouble ?

 

Redouble is usually 10-11 hcp and balanced, 1♠ is 4+♠, 1NT = 8-10 hcp, 2 of a minor is 5+ cards and not forcing, raises are usually 4-cds and jump bids are fit showing with a good 5-cd suit.

[PrecisionL]

Double post, deleted.

[Shugart23]

Here is Blue Team Club..... somewhat similar to your methods....the pass followed by the double showing 8-10 HCP and 3 card support is interesting.....I am not sure if this is 'old-fashioned' thinking or if it actually a better suited method to canapé bidding.....leaning toward the latter at the moment. Hopefully Ken R. or another experienced canapé player will jump in at some point...

 

In the case of opponent’s double of 1D,1H or 1S

 new suit at 1 level is normally 5 cards and forcing;

 new suit at 2 level is passable;

 redouble shows 10+ HCP, balanced or semi balanced.

 

Over the opening of 1H and 1S

 the simple raise remains natural (maybe a little weaker than normal),

whereas the jump raise is weak and unbalanced;

 2NT shows a balanced 4 card limit raise with two defensive tricks

 jump shifts are natural and invitational, unbalanced;

 1NT is 8-10 HCP with at most 2 cards in the opening suit

 the pass followed by double shows a 3 card constructive raise (8-10 HCP)

[hrothgar]

Hopefully Ken R. or another experienced canapé player will jump in at some point...

 

You've had plenty of comments from experienced canape players.

Your problem is that you are confusing a nebulous diamond opening with canape.

 

FWIW, I have played Blue Club for years.

 

It was a really good system, but its 50+ years old and competitive methods have really advanced since then.

[Shugart23]

No, I really am not confused with the nebulous Diamond.

 

The only reason I brought up BTC is because it is the only document I have found that deals with direct doubles in a canapé system. I will readily admit that I may completely off base...But IF it is true that when one open's 1H or 1S playing canapé that there is a 40 percent chance that partner has a longer side suit, it seems the 'modern' method completely discounts this non-trivial possibility..

 

It seems like there ought to be mechanisms for Opener and Responder to explore for the better fit over the take out double of one of a Major...the transfer scheme doesn't seem to contemplate this notion.