Show 6 card mnor over stayman

[Fluffy]

Nowdays I open more 6322 with 6 card minor on the 14-16 range with a (15-17) 1NT than I do with 1m, and I was wondering if there would be any merit on bidding the minor over stayman to show the hand. Perhaps only with a maximum.

 

The idea is to find some slams that I am missing lately for opening 1NT, with no real danger since even if partner is weak, 3m rates to be better than 2M.

 

 

 

[hrothgar]

Nowdays I open more 6322 with 6 card minor on the 14-16 range with a (15-17) 1NT than I do with 1m, and I was wondering if there would be any merit on bidding the minor over stayman to show the hand. Perhaps only with a maximum.

 

The idea is to find some slams that I am missing lately for opening 1NT, with no real danger since even if partner is weak, 3m rates to be better than 2M.

 

If you play garbage stayman, it might make sense to use both 3♣ and 3♦ to show different hands with diamonds.

(3!D shows a minimum, 3♣ shows a max or some such)

[SteveMoe]

Recall some recommend 2N to show that hand in case that's the last playable place. 3♣ is then pass or correct. Followup (flag bids) can identify the minor for game or slam.

[manudude03]

I used to bid a 6 card minor, but found that the hands where it gained were pretty rare while there were some pretty major downsides. It was a lot easier to double 3NT when LHO was stacked in your minor, and it puts too much strain on responder with the majors. If responder had a garbage stayman hand and shortage in your minor, you would often be playing in an inferior fit a level higher, and if they had a smolen hand, then the lead is exposed and advancer would often have to guess whether or not the fourth suit is secure with either a tentative stop or no stop at all (at least if it goes 1N-2C-2D-3S, you could guess to bid 3N and not have the lead marked).

[Fluffy]

If you play garbage stayman, it might make sense to use both 3♣ and 3♦ to show different hands with diamonds.

(3!D shows a minimum, 3♣ shows a max or some such)

Yes, 2NT for clubs and 3m for diamonds looks better.

[gszes]

I would wait until p has shown a game forcing hand then belatedly show my 6 bagger (mostly when responder bid 3n). It is fairly safe there and will rarely interfere with your far more normal sequences. If responder likes the idea of a minor slam they merely step bid to use RKC if not they use 4n to sign off OR if not sure cue bid something (besides next step or 4n) to show interest but unable to take control. As an aside I would be much more tempted to use this with hands that had at least 2nd round control in all suits so there are few circumstances where responder cannot feel safe taking control of the bidding. This method would allow responder to still splinter when not signing off or using the rkc step bid.

[jallerton]

Nowdays I open more 6322 with 6 card minor on the 14-16 range with a (15-17) 1NT than I do with 1m, and I was wondering if there would be any merit on bidding the minor over stayman to show the hand. Perhaps only with a maximum.

 

The idea is to find some slams that I am missing lately for opening 1NT, with no real danger since even if partner is weak, 3m rates to be better than 2M.

 

There are advantages and disadvantages of opening this hand type 1NT, but one of the advantages is that your potential source of tricks is concealed from the defence. You'll lose that particular advantage if you give away this information gratuitously. Remember that partner is usually interested in finding a fit in a major suit when he uses Stayman.

 

If you are concerned about missing thin slams, it's better to employ some other sequence from Responder to show a mild balanced slam try (preferably below 3NT), inviting Opener to bid on only with a long suit providing a potential source of tricks.

[creatbid]

No-trump-hand is balanced. It's no logic to open XNT with unbalanced 6322 and to make the whole bidding at a higher level.

How about open G3NT？LOL(ing)

[Zelandakh]

No-trump-hand is balanced. It's no logic to open XNT with unbalanced 6322 and to make the whole bidding at a higher level.

How about open G3NT？LOL(ing)

The quality of this comment matches that of the last in your profile. This is the expert forum so please try to raise your inputs to some minimum level - you do after all self-rate as an expert so presumably think yourself capable of adding something worthwhile. A large number of world class players will open NT on occasion with a 6 card minor so how about explaining why you disagree from a somewhat more concrete basis than "no-trump hand is balanced".

[creatbid]

The quality of this comment matches that of the last in your profile. This is the expert forum so please try to raise your inputs to some minimum level - you do after all self-rate as an expert so presumably think yourself capable of adding something worthwhile. A large number of world class players will open NT on occasion with a 6 card minor so how about explaining why you disagree from a somewhat more concrete basis than "no-trump hand is balanced".

You absolutely can open xnt with such unbalanced hand, but any responce goes above the lowest level and it will cause some problems to show your minor as the topic indicates. I can say a large numbers of exerts and world-class players use Don't/Brozel against a 1nt-hand while Lionel is more useful and gradually more popular？Oops maybe you don't know what's Don't/Brozel/Lionel of expert bridge:)

Edited February 10, 2016 by diana_eva
removed offtopic drivel

[Zelandakh]

As jallerton (that's Jeffrey Allerton, an English international player btw) already mentioned, not showing the minor when it is unnecessary is one of the advantages of opening 1NT. Most of the time, a strong 6322 hand is going to be showing its minor at the 3 level so we are not really saving bidding space by opening 1m - the information leakage on the other hand is another issue.

 

Your reference to NT defences rather confuses me as I cannot see the relevance to this topic. I would not say that a large number of world class players use DONT (not Don't, it is an acronym for Distub Opponents' NT) or Brozel. DONT tends to be most popular amongst club players, particularly in the USA. Multi Landy, to name but one, is far more popular amongst world class players. In the UK, where I grew up, almost noone plays either DONT or Brozel. Lionel is a perfectly decent NT defence and also has its adherents in the UK. It is not my choice though and I am not overly convinced by your argument of it being "more useful". If you are interested in discussing this, I would suggest starting a new topic though, rather than risk threadjacking Fluffy's discussion.

[gnasher]

If you're often missing slams on this type of deal, perhaps you're opening 1NT on hands that are too strong for it?

 

I think a 16-count with a decent 6-card suit would usually be the equivalent of a balanced 18-count.

[Siegmund]

Absent a sim or studying a bunch of hands ... my first thought is that I'd doubt that 3m really IS better than a 4-3 major fit, when the hand with 3 of the major has two doubletons, and responder is weak (a lot of the time both contracts will be down, possibly down several, and it's a matter of not getting doubled to win the board.) Of course on those hands you'll be losing to the field whose auction started 1m-p-p.

[Free]

Agree that 3m might not be a good place, usually your minor suit will be of poor quality. But if you insist on showing the minor, I'd respond 2NT with a minimum hand (after which 3♣ is P/C) and 3m natural with a max.

[helene_t]

I second Maunude's comments. Also, the 2NT and 3♣ rebid might have better uses, for example showing a 5-card major.

[gnasher]

Agree that 3m might not be a good place, usually your minor suit will be of poor quality.

I assumed that Fluffy was talking about hands with a good 6-card minor. I can see an argument for bidding 3♣ with Ax xx Kxx AKJxxx, but with a moderate minor suit it just seems obvious to bid 2♦.

[Fluffy]

I assumed that Fluffy was talking about hands with a good 6-card minor. I can see an argument for bidding 3♣ with Ax xx Kxx AKJxxx, but with a moderate minor suit it just seems obvious to bid 2♦.

I had no big idea in mind, but after reading everyone I believe this is best.

[WesleyC]

I recently heard of a related method that sounds like it might have some merit.

 

After a 2D/2H transfer response to a strong 1NT, bidding a new suit isn't a super-accept but instead shows a maximum 1NT with a good 6 card side suit with a misfit for partner's major.

[Charlie Yu]

Not much merit, exposing your shortness in the other 3 suits. Hands that benefit from this bid (~5-7 HCP, Hxx) in the minor are usually too weak for stayman.