Slam bidding from Relaxed Club

[Lovera]

http://tinyurl.com/jd2bqc2

[Lovera]

I have had this hand that my partner has played ..although for -2. But it is not important this one. The hand had opening leads in club but with a spade instead it is possible to get a top (style Carribean pirates) or also gets -1 that, i think, should have a good resulting. Initially i use to say "see my profile expecially for raising" and when partner started Blackwood i told, via table, "rkb" :having 5 cards in heart suit without Queen (trump) my 5♠ bidding is obbliged (but en passant i also with four cards had to bid so -Queen falls down AK or is impassable) forcing 6♥ while partner told me that my bidding had to be 5♦ for a classic Blackwood (but i already had told that..). What do you think about score for 6♥-1 ? Thanks.

[manudude03]

Don't like 3H (prefer 3C), hate 4NT. A well deserved -10 imps if it's scored that way.

[Lovera]

Don't like 3H (prefer 3C), hate 4NT. A well deserved -10 imps if it's scored that way.

No, for system when raising is intereferred is preemptive indicating 6-11points and support.

With -10 doesn't change having already -11 i though better.

[Zelandakh]

3♥ is bad, 4NT is worse, the rest is automatic. If you think everything you did on the hand was perfect, why did you post it? Do you want to embarrass your partner somehow, because I can assure you we have all seen a lot worse.

[Cyberyeti]

No, for system when raising is intereferred is preemptive indicating 6-11points and support.

With -10 doesn't change having already -11 i though better.

 

3♥ is terrible, the 5th heart is huge, this is closer to being worth a GF than a 3♥ bid, the correct bid depending on exactly what set of raises you play. If you want to preempt, do so to the level of the fit at this vul and bid 4♥.

 

Partner's bidding is worse, you have a much better hand than he has any right to expect and the slam is still virtually no play. He might have got lucky and found you with Axxx, Kxxx, x, xxxx but that was about the only hand where the slam is playable.

[Lovera]

3♥ is terrible, the 5th heart is huge, this is closer to being worth a GF than a 3♥ bid, the correct bid depending on exactly what set of raises you play. If you want to preempt, do so to the level of the fit at this vul and bid 4♥.

As from the system adopted more exactly the raising in trump suit by opener is ruled so:6-11 points single raising while for jump as here 11-12points. The difference (when 11) is because with the first case if interference there was not the bidding had to be after 1♠ 2♠, in the second case w/o opp bidding the raise was differed at second round bidding first a side suit ,than here i must bid 2♥ but tendentially valued better my hand so bidding instead 3♥ having 11 points.

[Lovera]

On replying to Zelandakh that told " Do you want to embarrass your partner somehow, because I can assure you we have all seen a lot worse."

 

No, this is out of question. The aim is to point that, yet if we speak about RKB and all its variants largely, the old Blackwood is used till and ,with the occasion , for about what i have said at the end of my post #2, bye.

[Cyberyeti]

As from the system adopted more exactly the raising in trump suit by opener is ruled so:6-11 points single raising while for jump as here 11-12points. The difference (when 11) is because with the first case if interference there was not the bidding had to be after 1♠ 2♠, in the second case w/o opp bidding the raise was differed at second round bidding first a side suit ,than here i must bid 2♥ but tendentially valued better my hand so bidding instead 3♥ having 11 points.

 

Yes, but you have more than 2 raises in competition, what are 2N and 3♣ ? The rest of the world plays 3♥ as weaker than you do and one or both of 2N/3♣ as better than 3♥ while still not necessarily GF.

 

Also, the 5th trump is worth a lot more than a point in a 10 card fit as it will often guarantee a whole extra trick, so your hand is pushing over the top of 11-12 even if you do play this.

[Lovera]

Yes, but you have more than 2 raises in competition, what are 2N and 3♣ ? The rest of the world plays 3♥ as weaker than you do and one or both of 2N/3♣ as better than 3♥ while still not necessarily GF.

 

Also, the 5th trump is worth a lot more than a point in a 10 card fit as it will often guarantee a whole extra trick, so your hand is pushing over the top of 11-12 even if you do play this.

Well. For the first part of your post probably 2NT is Jacoby that i don't use. About 3♣ as manudude03 also said, i think it can be considered being preempt too but not in this hand.

The second part : i've only indicated for topic valutation as in system but i am agree with you and i apply too that 10 card fit ...infact i've told that considered an overvalutation for the hand and about it remains only to say that we have here what i call "surplus" (+2 in heart suit).

[rmnka447]

Opener should ask "What do I need to know to make slam a good bet?"

 

Two pieces of information are required -- knowing you have enough KCs and knowing that you don't have a ♦ loser.

 

Then opener should ask "Is there anyway I find out that information?" By jumping to RKCB, the answer to the first question can be found, but not the answer to the second question (♦ controls). Normally, finding a specific control is done by cueing. Thinking along those lines, should possibly lead opener to a 4 ♣ cue over 3 ♥.

 

Now, if responder can't find a 4 ♦ cue, opener will know there's a probable ♦ loser and not bid slam when a KC is missing.

[Lovera]

It will be probably that with 5♦ BLW meaning 1 Ace is allowed partner to end in 5♥ but, apart it, the problem is on when used the (new) Rkb with this answer of 2 keys plus Queen "w or w/o (you..)" because is not ruled/done always it(=cue).

[fourdad]

As my regular partnerships would play 4♥ as preemptive here, I do not hate the 3♥ bid as a reasonable limit raise.

4NT is just plain AWFUL no matter how you look at it.

[Lovera]

Altough, let's consider to " focus " on this (interesting) answer bidding, perhaps there is a way to escape from this "impasse" where 5♠ force 6♥. When spade trump is agree no problem, but here i indicate two keys and if are two Aces we can make 6♥. If instead are 1A+King of heart -where probably partner has the Queen - can be usefull to bid 5♥ as we had four cards (out of the tecnically right 5♠ answer). What do you think ?

[gszes]

West should realize that opener would need close to 20 hcp and a club singleton for 6h to make sense and if p is looking at that much they will probably move anyway. West then needs to find an appropriate description for the hand and it seems that the west hand is being viewed in way too positive a light. ONE trick might make a great preemptive hand but it does not make a slammish hand (MAYBE opposite a strong 2 bid). The west hand is a nice safe 4h raise (in that sense only might it be considered GF) but should not go slowly since that should promise much more -convertible- values (convert those 3 <assuredly useless> jacks into a (non club) king and now we have something to talk about) than the hand has. Rho will have no problem passing the 4h raise.

 

Down 1 is NOT always good bridge:)))))))))))))

 

I did not like the 4n bid since it is being used more along the lines of a slam search tool < a technique that can be used in a cramped bidding situation which this is not> rather than being used to avoid going down in what otherwise looks like a good slam. If east had begun with a cue bid over 3h surely west would have been happy to sign off and maybe the partnership could have avoided this debacle.

[Cyberyeti]

West should realize that opener would need close to 20 hcp and a club singleton for 6h to make sense and if p is looking at that much they will probably move anyway. West then needs to find an appropriate description for the hand and it seems that the west hand is being viewed in way too positive a light. ONE trick might make a great preemptive hand but it does not make a slammish hand (MAYBE opposite a strong 2 bid). The west hand is a nice safe 4h raise (in that sense only might it be considered GF) but should not go slowly since that should promise much more -convertible- values (convert those 3 <assuredly useless> jacks into a (non club) king and now we have something to talk about) than the hand has. Rho will have no problem passing the 4h raise.

 

I agree for slam purposes (although KQJx, Axxxx, Axx, x is sufficient and not close to a 20 count), I was thinking more for game purposes, Kx, AQxxx, Axxx, xx or KQx, AQxxx, xxxx, x is plenty for game with likely nothing on for opps, I don't like playing in 3♥+1 opposite that sort of thing.

[Caitlynne]

I think bidding a slam with nothing extra - you MIGHT have a raise to game based on the 6th heart - is foolish. Looks like you got about what you deserved, throwing away a game bonus on a highly speculative action. If you think this is a winning strategy, I want to play against you in a money game.

[GrahamJson]

The two worst bids on this board are the 4NT and 2C, which no one has mentioned. S has a text book double; far better than a two level overcall on a five card suit.

 

I don't mind the 3H bid, which is about right on values. The fifth heart is only a big card if you have a shortage, which is not the case here.

 

Note that if you swap E's black suits around even four hearts could fail, despite E having a strong hand

[GrahamJson]

FWIW my suggested bidding is 1H - X - 4H - All pass

[Zelandakh]

Altough, let's consider to " focus " on this (interesting) answer bidding, perhaps there is a way to escape from this "impasse" where 5♠ force 6♥. When spade trump is agree no problem, but here i indicate two keys and if are two Aces we can make 6♥. If instead are 1A+King of heart -where probably partner has the Queen - can be usefull to bid 5♥ as we had four cards (out of the tecnically right 5♠ answer). What do you think ?

There already is a solution available, known as Kickback. This exchanges the meaning of a 4♠ and 4NT rebid.

[Lovera]

There already is a solution available, known as Kickback. This exchanges the meaning of a 4♠ and 4NT rebid.

Yes, but just for not use it (that can also be not better known) that i have told about Rkb (not indicating 10-cards fit).

[Lovera]

As i have told in my post #2 talking that with five cards in heart or having a 10 cards fit, 5♠ is the answer ..that although force to bid 6♥. The opener has an hand of second range/intermediate force not minimum, a 6-card with another suit (diamond) unbalanced with most probably on-the-line all honors in trump agree and than bids 4NT. After that 1♥ is interferred i bid 3♥ thinking only to preempt and waiting as bidding had to continue but i was happy to hear 4NT (i thought partner can have 5 cards). Fourthemore partner wanted answeres as classical Blw when said that " i have to bid 5♦ "seeing 1 ace in my hand. Is this situation that i tried to consider referred to Rkb trying to avoid a forced six level because if the fifth is warranted the sixth not and expecially if partner hand is not strong (sured by a 2♣ bidding).

[miamijd]

A few comments (may duplicate those of others):

 

1. 2c overcall is awful. X seems obvious here.

 

2. 3h (if played as a limit raise) isn't bad at all. It describes the hand. Jumping to 4h is awful; you could easily miss a slam. 3c is fine if played as a limit raise, but if partner bids 3h, you should pass. 3 small clubs are lousy given the overcall.

 

3. 4NT is terrible. To make slam, you'll need to find partner with (1) As, (2) Kh, and (3) a stiff diamond and five hearts or Kx in diamonds and four hearts (partner won't have KQd along with the As and Kh). Not likely at all. Go quietly with 4h; a 3s or 4d cue-bid is pointless and may get you too high. Indeed, partner could have something like xx KJxxx KQJx xx, where even 5h won't make.

[Lovera]

A few comments (may duplicate those of others):

 

1. 2c overcall is awful. X seems obvious here.

 

2. 3h (if played as a limit raise) isn't bad at all. It describes the hand. Jumping to 4h is awful; you could easily miss a slam. 3c is fine if played as a limit raise, but if partner bids 3h, you should pass. 3 small clubs are lousy given the overcall.

 

3. 4NT is terrible. To make slam, you'll need to find partner with (1) As, (2) Kh, and (3) a stiff diamond and five hearts or Kx in diamonds and four hearts (partner won't have KQd along with the As and Kh). Not likely at all. Go quietly with 4h; a 3s or 4d cue-bid is pointless and may get you too high. Indeed, partner could have something like xx KJxxx KQJx xx, where even 5h won't make.

Infact we are talking about because this slam is fragile. The bidding of S would have changed, most probably, the final contract it being a strong bidding of opp to consider. That is the reason i try to modulate the answer of RKB -that cannot be modify - in accordling to force of bidder (obv if there is a strong hand it is not necessary to have a reduction of it).

[miamijd]

Infact we are talking about because this slam is fragile. The bidding of S would have changed, most probably, the final contract it being a strong bidding of opp to consider. That is the reason i try to modulate the answer of RKB -that cannot be modify - in accordling to force of bidder (obv if there is a strong hand it is not necessary to have a reduction of it).

 

Slam isn't fragile. It is hopeless, and will be with most limit raises partner could have on this bidding.