I should know this...

[Jinksy]

With 4504 and a minimum opening, suppose you open 1♥ and partner's 2♣ comes back to you.

 

Do you normally show spades at this point, since there's nothing stopping him from having 4nn5 and a minimum? Or normally not, since (let's say) 2♠ would show extra values? Or the former, but justifying it on the grounds that we (probably) have an 8-card club fit which means our void makes the hand non-minimum?

 

Does it make any difference whether P's 2♣ was GF (assuming that you'd still play opener's reverse as showing extra strength)?

[mgoetze]

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/47733-2-hearts-or-2-spades/

 

Does it make any difference whether P's 2♣ was GF

Definitely yes.

[Zelandakh]

Does it make any difference whether P's 2♣ was GF (assuming that you'd still play opener's reverse as showing extra strength)?

Yes this does make a difference but the biggest difference is probably whether 2♥ is forcing or not. If it is then you are not missing your spade fit and, in the system you describe, both 2♠ and 3♣ will usually show extras. It is different again if 2♣ is GF and 2♠ does not show extras so this is really quite a system-specific auction.

[gszes]

Assuming these two hands meet your criteria for minimum: IMHO

 

QJ32 KQJ32 void K432

(SAYC) should be willing to make a simple 3c bid. If responder cannot make a move over 3c odds are you are not missing game/slam with all those quacks.

(2/1) responder is a tad stronger so I would fire out there with 3d (splinter) and let p decide what to do.

 

8765 AKQ32 void K654

(SAYC) Vastly superior hand and should have no trouble bidding 2s showing extra values. If responder feels NT is right you can feel pretty safe trying it. If responder seems afraid of NT you have the values to not only feel safe in 5c but slam should be in our thinking.

(2/1) You have close to a monster --for a minimum hand that is--lets get the rolling with 3c because that makes bidding NT the easiest if responder cares to bid it and if not our hand becomes gigantor and the question becomes how high can we soar and the 3c bid setting trumps becomes a great anchor.

 

It is not just distribution and HCP but what kind and location of HCP that helps one decide the overall value of a hand.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

With a minimum 4/5 in ♠/♥, it is one reason Flannery was invented .

[Vampyr]

Yes this does make a difference but the biggest difference is probably whether 2♥ is forcing or not. If it is then you are not missing your spade fit and, in the system you describe, both 2♠ and 3♣ will usually show extras.

 

I think that is is more common when 2♥ is not forcing, 3♣ does not show extras.

[Zelandakh]

I think that is is more common when 2♥ is not forcing, 3♣ does not show extras.

Perhaps I added too many sub-clauses for clarity but that was what was meant in my post - if it is forcing then, under the conditions of the OP, a. we are not missing our spade fit, and b. it would be expected that 3♣ also shows extras.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

With a minimum 4/5 in ♠/♥, it is one reason Flannery was invented .

 

Another invention has been the Kaplan Inversion or Kaplan Interchange to handle 1H openings .

[zillahandp]

Yes, and p is very unlikely to have four spades and you have a fit what more do you want Who reverses on a min hand? You do know this I hope

[mgoetze]

Who reverses on a min hand?

If you check my reply you'll see that a Bermuda Bowl silver medalist does. :P

[oryctolagi]

As an Acol player, what do I do?

 

Certainly not open 1♥. You can't 'change your mind' and show a reverse based on partner's response. If partner hears your 2♠ after 1♥, they will assume you had a strong opener even before they said anything.

 

Open 1 ♠ and follow with 2 ♥ perhaps?

 

I think I'd open 1♣. If partner shows ♦ you can show your ♥. You can support whichever major partner bids, of course. If they respond 1NT better leave it there, despite the void. But in this instance partner would presumably raise your ♣. Then it's up to you.

[PhilG007]

With 4504 and a minimum opening, suppose you open 1♥ and partner's 2♣ comes back to you.

 

Do you normally show spades at this point, since there's nothing stopping him from having 4nn5 and a minimum? Or normally not, since (let's say) 2♠ would show extra values? Or the former, but justifying it on the grounds that we (probably) have an 8-card club fit which means our void makes the hand non-minimum?

 

Does it make any difference whether P's 2♣ was GF (assuming that you'd still play opener's reverse as showing extra strength)?

 

Rebidding ♠would be totally pointless as partner had the chance to bid the suit over your 1♥.

I would regard the 2♣ response as forcing but not game forcing(at least not yet) Depending on the points held in opener's

hand,I would rebid 3♣ thus fixing the suit on minimum values but jump to 4♣ with 16+. The void in ♦ would seriously discourage

me from going into No Trumps.

[GrahamJson]

As an Acol player, what do I do?

 

Certainly not open 1♥. You can't 'change your mind' and show a reverse based on partner's response. If partner hears your 2♠ after 1♥, they will assume you had a strong opener even before they said anything.

 

Open 1 ♠ and follow with 2 ♥ perhaps?

 

I think I'd open 1♣. If partner shows ♦ you can show your ♥. You can support whichever major partner bids, of course. If they respond 1NT better leave it there, despite the void. But in this instance partner would presumably raise your ♣. Then it's up to you.

 

 

I disagree. Bidding is all about revaluing your hand as the bidding goes on. A 4504 hand becomes stronger if partner bids clubs but loses value if he bids diamonds.

[Zelandakh]

Who reverses on a min hand? You do know this I hope

Playing 2/1 it is more common for a reverse not to show extras than the reverse. You do know this I hope.

 

 

As an Acol player, what do I do?

 

Certainly not open 1♥. You can't 'change your mind' and show a reverse based on partner's response. If partner hears your 2♠ after 1♥, they will assume you had a strong opener even before they said anything.

 

Open 1 ♠ and follow with 2 ♥ perhaps?

 

I think I'd open 1♣. If partner shows ♦ you can show your ♥. You can support whichever major partner bids, of course. If they respond 1NT better leave it there, despite the void. But in this instance partner would presumably raise your ♣. Then it's up to you.

This is extremely bad advice for Acol players. There once was a time when an Acol player might open 1♥ with 4♥5♦ but as far as I know opening 1♠ with 4♠5♥ was known to be bad even back in the 60s. Similarly, if you 1♣ you can never ever show 4♣5♥. I would go so far as to suggest that you would not find an expert level Acol player that would open 1♣ or 1♠ on a normal hand with this shape.

 

 

Rebidding ♠would be totally pointless as partner had the chance to bid the suit over your 1♥.

I would regard the 2♣ response as forcing but not game forcing(at least not yet)

Even if you were playing 2/1? I would hope not. Very very few players use a MAF style over 1♥. While you may respond 1♠ with a GF 4♠5♣ hand, that is not a majority style by any means. Indeed, playing 2/1 there are some BBFers who would prefer 2♣ with 4♠4♣ and at least one who would on occasion respond 2♣ with 4♠2♣. Bidding tends to be a lot easier after establishing a game force so why not use the advantage of the 2/1 system if playing it?

[Jinksy]

Even if you were playing 2/1? I would hope not. Very very few players use a MAF style over 1♥.

 

MAF?

[Zelandakh]

MAF?

Majors Always First.

[Caitlynne]

I am bidding 2S regardless of whether I the partnership has agreed to play this as a reverse (extra value showing) or not and regardless of whether 2C is game forcing or not.

 

I plan to support clubs next no matter what partner may do. The void plus 4 card support makes this worth the reverse (if applicable).

 

By the way, I prefer that the 2S bid does not show extra because I like 2H to show 6+ cards. If you play 2S as a reverse, you must use 2H as a meaningless, marking-time, rebid.

 

Also, it is better if 2C is game forcing. Then you don't have to worry about partner rebidding 3NT over 2S. If partner bids 2NT, you have an easy 3C bid. But, even if 2C is only a 1 round force and partner does next bid 3NT over my 2S rebid, I will bid 4C next. Four card support and a void is just too important to ignore.

[zillahandp]

Mr goetze so what? How many dont? And it is not a reverse I guess in his system, and his p might not be able to bid spades without five.

[zillahandp]

Zeland, yes I also know there are many different relays in the system and I assume so do you, am I right?

[mgoetze]

Mr goetze so what? How many dont?

Who cares how many don't? The point is that your pretense that you can spread your vision of standard as gospel is untenable.

[Zelandakh]

Zeland, yes I also know there are many different relays in the system and I assume so do you, am I right?

Not exactly sure what you mean by "many different relays" here. 2/1 is essentially a natural system. There are temporising bids that can produce an effect similarly to a relay but this is quite different to a relay system.

 

Who cares how many don't? The point is that your pretense that you can spread your vision of standard as gospel is untenable.

As I wrote in my previous message, the more popular way is for a reverse after a GF 2/1 not to show extras. There are plenty that do play this differently but if I were playing with a pick-up partner with no further agreement other than "2/1 p?", I would assume the reverse did not show extras the first time it came up.

[Redbird44]

I think that playing 2/1 you would just bid your shape after the game force? Since the object is to find the best place to play, then how can it hurt to tell your partner about the actual shape of the hand even knowing that you have not fit in !s's? You are already in a game force so this bid should not imply extras. Playing Flannery in a 2/1 environment then I would think this bid shows a hand that is too strong to open 2!d (Flannery). . so it should show 17+ ??

 

All of these comments are questions rather than statements so if someone reading this finds fault . . please chime in!

[billw55]

I must be old fashioned, with four trumps and a void I raise partner.

[Vampyr]

In one of Matt Granovetter's mystery books, one of the characters advises him to bid a "convenient spade" with 4-X-X-5 hands. Maybe when the 5-card suit is diamonds too; I really don't remember. Perhaps someone has access to the details?