Auction after reverse

[awm]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=saqxhakxxdkckqjxx&s=skxxxxxht9xxdaxca]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Here's the auction my partner and I generated:

 

1♣ - 1♠

2♥ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♣

4♦ - 4NT

5♦ - 5♠

6♥

 

The first four bids were natural (3♥ game forcing; we play lebensohl over reverses). The next three bids were cuebids, 4NT was 1430 keycard, 5♦ showed three, 5♠ asked about the heart queen and 6♥ denied it. An okay slam, but 7NT or 7♠ is excellent. Some questions:

 

(1) How would you bid these hands with your favorite partner, playing some form of standard or 2/1?

 

(2) Should we treat 3♠ here as showing a spade fit? If so, are we now forced to play in spades? How do we distinguish which major will be trumps?

 

(3) Which bid, if any, was our mistake in this auction? Or do we just need better methods?

[Elianna]

Well, I bet that my bidding with my favorite partner would go the same way. :blink:

[HeartA]

when 5♦ shows 3 keycards, North should know that South was assuming ♠ as trumps. And, South must have 5-card of ♠ or more if South's 3♥ promised 4♥. After 5♦, North can count (almost) 12 top tricks: 3♠s, 2♥s, 2♦s and 5♣s. A grand slam based on a suit of 3-2 distribution on opp's hand is not bad. I would bid 7NT after 5♦.

[hrothgar]

Dealer: North Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ AQx ♥ AKxx ♦ K ♣ KQJxx ♠ Kxxxxx ♥ T9xx ♦ Ax ♣ A

 

Here's the auction my partner and I generated:

 

1♣ - 1♠

2♥ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♣

4♦ - 4NT

5♦ - 5♠

6♥

 

The first four bids were natural (3♥ game forcing; we play lebensohl over reverses). The next three bids were cuebids, 4NT was 1430 keycard, 5♦ showed three, 5♠ asked about the heart queen and 6♥ denied it. An okay slam, but 7NT or 7♠ is excellent. Some questions:

 

(1) How would you bid these hands with your favorite partner, playing some form of standard or 2/1?

 

(2) Should we treat 3♠ here as showing a spade fit? If so, are we now forced to play in spades? How do we distinguish which major will be trumps?

 

(3) Which bid, if any, was our mistake in this auction? Or do we just need better methods?

I find it hard to fault the auction...

 

If the 3♥ raise shows 4 Hearts and sets the trump trump suit, than 3♠ should show a Spade control. Once you've identified a primary trump fit, it can be difficult to suggest alternative strains. Most bidding structures are designed to set the 8 card fit as trump and check for controls...

 

Double dummy, is clear that a 2♠ rebid would have worked much better than the heart riase. At the table, I would have chosen to show my 4 card Heart support and be similarly fixed.

 

In a similar fashion, I'm sure that someone will be able to use some 5NT pick a slam gimmick and land in a perfect grand. I'd be surprised to see this happening at the table...

 

Using standard bididng, the following simple cue bidding sequence looks the most reasonable

 

1♣ - 1♠

2♥ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♣

4♦ - 4♠

5♣ - 5♦

7N

 

As already noted, if 3♥ promises 4♥, than responder also has 5♠. The key is getting responder to cue bid the King of Spades....

[mike777]

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> None </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AQx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AKxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> K </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> KQJxx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> Kxxxxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> T9xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> Ax </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> A </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

 

Here's the auction my partner and I generated:

 

1♣ - 1♠

2♥ - 3♥

3♠ - 4♣

4♦ - 4NT

5♦ - 5♠

6♥

 

The first four bids were natural (3♥ game forcing; we play lebensohl over reverses). The next three bids were cuebids, 4NT was 1430 keycard, 5♦ showed three, 5♠ asked about the heart queen and 6♥ denied it. An okay slam, but 7NT or 7♠ is excellent. Some questions:

 

(1) How would you bid these hands with your favorite partner, playing some form of standard or 2/1?

 

(2) Should we treat 3♠ here as showing a spade fit? If so, are we now forced to play in spades? How do we distinguish which major will be trumps?

 

(3) Which bid, if any, was our mistake in this auction? Or do we just need better methods?

In the version of "The Principle of Captaincy" I know:

1) If one hand is very strong they should be captain

2) otherwise the undefined hand is Captain, this means responder most of the time if they have not limited their hand.

3) In my style that means very often Captain asks and p tells.

4) Many others prefer a style where both p just tell

 

Here opener knows they have a huge hand that partner will never suspect and should assume captaincy perhaps by bidding 4nt at some point.

 

Here responder assumed captaincy by bidding 4nt rather than following p lead and just showing controls and as the much weaker hand that lead to all kinds of problems. Of course responder never played p for 22 HCP.

 

On this one, super strong hand of 22 hcp assuming control with 4nt or responder not taking control just showing controls may have helped. If you play style where both just tell, which can win, then do not know how to solve this one after weaker hand assumed control.

[luke warm]

playing standard

 

1c : 1s

2h : 3h

3s : 4c

4nt : 5h

5nt : 6s

7nt

 

looks possible

[hotShot]

There are 2 things you should discuss with your partner.

 

1) should bidding of 3♠ instead of 3♥, show fit and extra length in ♠?

There are other bids available for missfits.

 

2) Opener should know there is a double fit, after partners 2♥ he should know of a 8 card fit in ♠.

After your auction he sees

♠ AKD 8+ cards (5(+) - 3)

♥ AK 8 cards 4-4

♦ AK 2+ cards

♣ AKQJ 6+ cards

Opener can see that trump queen will not be missing, if playing ♠ and that 2 of partners ♥ can be dropped on his♣. Partner can't hold more than 4 card in the minors! So opener should bid 6 or 7 ♠ and not 6♥.

[Elianna]

2) Opener should know there is a double fit, after partners 2♥ he should know of a 8 card fit in ♠.

After your auction he sees

♠ AKD 8+ cards (5(+) - 3)

♥ AK 8 cards 4-4

♦ AK 2+ cards

♣ AKQJ 6+ cards

Opener can see that trump queen will not be missing, if playing ♠ and that 2 of partners ♥ can be dropped on his♣. Partner can't hold more than 4 card in the minors! So opener should bid 6 or 7 ♠ and not 6♥.

How does opener know about ♠K (and therefore that he can bid 7♠)? Also, how does he know that bidding 6♠ is to play, not showing ♥Q and ♠K (and ability to force to the 7 level)?

[pclayton]

Its a little unlucky, but I wouldn't consider a raise to 3♥ over 2♥ with a 6 card spade suit. 2♥ is frequently a short suit, so responder should rebid a 6 bagger.

 

I think if the auction starts 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 4♦, you can't help but bid seven.

 

Give responder a 4432, and I think its a tougher situation.

[hrothgar]

Its a little unlucky, but I wouldn't consider a raise to 3♥ over 2♥ with a 6 card spade suit. 2♥ is frequently a short suit, so responder should rebid a 6 bagger.

 

I think if the auction starts 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 4♦, you can't help but bid seven.

 

Give responder a 4432, and I think its a tougher situation.

The auction has started 1♥ - 1♠

 

Can you give an example hand where opener should fake a heart reverse after this start...

[the hog]

The auction was 1C 1S 2H, but seriously Phil, if you are playing that 2H can be a short suit reverse, I really hate this. As you know, I have a "thing" about bidding non existent suits.

 

If opener can reverse into a 3 card suit, how do you distinguish between a minimum raise to game, (4H), and an ongoing hand, (3H)? Responder should bid 4H on say 6-9 and bid an ongoing 3H otherwise.

 

There are plenty of ways to get to 7N on this hand

 

â™  AQx

♥ AKxx

D K

♣ KQJxx

 

â™  Kxxxxx

♥ T9xx

D Ax

♣ A

 

1C 1S

2H 3H

3S 4C

4D 4H

4S

 

In this case the 3S and 4S bids show genuine hons, not shortness - we never cue bid a shortage in a suit a partner has bid naturally.

 

Ron

[Guest Jlall]

In my opinion the third bid should be shape showing. So 3S would show 3 spades. This simplifies things.

[hotShot]

2) Opener should know there is a double fit, after partners 2♥ he should know of a 8 card fit in ♠.

After your auction he sees

♠ AKD 8+ cards (5(+) - 3)

♥ AK  8 cards 4-4

♦ AK  2+ cards

♣ AKQJ 6+ cards

Opener can see that trump queen will not be missing, if playing ♠ and that 2 of partners ♥ can be dropped on his♣. Partner can't hold more than 4 card in the minors! So opener should bid 6 or 7 ♠ and not 6♥.

How does opener know about ♠K (and therefore that he can bid 7♠)? Also, how does he know that bidding 6♠ is to play, not showing ♥Q and ♠K (and ability to force to the 7 level)?

There was a 5♠ Cuebid!

[Elianna]

Um, I believe that it clearly states the 5♠ was not a cue bid, but a Queen ask in hearts. It does not show the K.

[HeartA]

In my opinion the third bid should be shape showing. So 3S would show 3 spades. This simplifies things.

Agree.

[hotShot]

Um, I believe that it clearly states the 5♠ was not a cue bid, but a Queen ask in hearts.  It does not show the K.

Opps, you are right.

It makes no sence to me to start a cuebid sequence and than bid RKCB.

In that case I can see no reason why responder did not bid 4♠ cue instead of 4NT. He may not hide his ♠ control. Since he is passing 4♥ anyway, 4♠ is the correct bid.

If you start cuebidding continue cuebidding.

1♣ - 1♠

2♥ - 3♥

3♠ - 3♣

4♦ - 4♠

5♣ - 5♦

Now double control in all side suits is established, and opener can make a good choice.

5♥ would now show missing 2 of AKQ in ♥.

6♥ shows missing 1 of AKQ

7♥ all there

 

Seems to me 4NT is only bid to check the trump quality.

[pclayton]

I don't like reversing into non-existent suits either, but its SOP for a 2/1 pair. Give opener: AQx, AKx, x, KQJxxx and the 2/1 universe rebids 2♥ on this.

 

In another thread many moons ago, I discussed how my 2♣ opener eliminates for bogus reverses. Quite simply:

 

2♣ - 3♣

4♣ - 4♠

7N

 

2♣ = 4-5 losers, 5+ controls

3♣ = 5 controls

4♣ and 4♠ = natural, 5 card+ suits

 

I like the idea that opener's 3rd suit is shape-showing, but its a band-aid for a flawed system.

[the hog]

"I don't like reversing into non-existent suits either, but its SOP for a 2/1 pair. Give opener: AQx, AKx, x, KQJxxx and the 2/1 universe rebids 2♥ on this. "

 

Well in that case I cannot understand why the 2/1 universe does not adopt a 2NT rebid as an artificial game force.

[Fluffy]

The bidding is 100% correct untill last bid

 

Take north's site:

 

1♠ then 3♥ promised 5+♠-4+♥

 

5♠ promised all keycards except ♥Q (We are at the 6 level).

 

It seems rather obviosu that we have 13 top tricks on ♠, and probably in NT as well.

 

So I think his 6♥ response to the trump Q ask was a bit lazyand should bid a grand.

 

To your questions...

 

(1) : exactly the same but don't bid 6♥ but 7NT (of course ♠K may be missing... you can't have all, maybe 6♠ then?).

(2) : no, it could be just ♠A or ♠K, not singleton though.

 

(3) : only the last bid.

[Elianna]

(1) : exactly the same but don't bid 6♥ but 7NT (of course ♠K may be missing... you can't have all, maybe 6♠ then?).

Again, if one read the posts between Hotshot and myself, one would know that 6♠ is not natural, it should show ♠K (and obviously a hand willing to bypass 6♥).

 

I take exception to characterizing 6♥ as lazy, it is responding to partner's question. I know that many people on the boards like masterminding the auction, but some people like cooperating with partners.

 

I think that that the best option may be that responder, instead of keycarding, bids 4♠ (continuing Qing). Responder is clearly willing to proceed past 4♥, he may as well continue his bidding.

[Fluffy]

In that case I can see no reason why responder did not bid 4♠ cue instead of 4NT. He may not hide his ♠ control.

Just because he thinks he has everything except key cards (actually ♠Q may be missing if partner has exactly 3415, but then ♣ should also have a hole for having a loser).

[Fluffy]

In my opinion the third bid should be shape showing. So 3S would show 3 spades. This simplifies things.

Would you bid 3NT then with 2425 and 20 HCP?, it looks great, but chances of missunderstanding would frighten me.

 

Of course arguing that 4♦ gets you too high is also arguable, but I wouldn't trust mysefl saying that, since it is rather obvious that a 3♠ bid showing 3♠ leaves you on the better position of all.

[Fluffy]

Again, if one read the posts between Hotshot and myself, one would know that 6♠ is not natural, it should show ♠K (and obviously a hand willing to bypass 6♥).

actually following your reasoning it shows ♥Q, ♠K and the lack of ♣K, and if you think it for more than 2 seconds you will realice 2 things:

 

Forcing to play in 7 with ♣K missing is ridioulous.

If you are gonna force to play 7, you don't need more than 1 bid to show it: 7♥.

 

 

 

I take exception to characterizing 6♥ as lazy, it is responding to partner's question.  I know that many people on the boards like masterminding the auction, but some people like cooperating with partners.

 

For partner to ask for ♥Q going beyond the 5 level, he must only have been missing that key card, it is rather obvious you will win 7♠ as long as the ♣ suit provides enough discards for the third, 4th and maybe 5th ♥, at the 7 level you should never be lazy responder, but have a think of what is going on.

 

A quick example:

 

♠AKx

♥xx

♦xx

♣KQJxxx

 

1♠-2♣

2♥-2♠

3♣-4♣

4NT-5♥

5NT-????

 

Regardless f what system you play, 5NT is a grand slam try, therefore partner has to not be missing any ace nor ♠Q, if you don't bid 7NT with these cards partner might not play again with you.

[PriorKnowledge]

Opener = AQx AKxx K KQJxx

Responder = Kxxxxx xxxx Ax A

 

The excess q-bidding confused the auction. Opener takes control early because 1) Opener is VERY strong (4-loser hand), 2) Opener knows about the club suit, and 3) Opener can see partnership assets. Once opener hears the heart raise, opener has 1st or 2nd in all suits and does not need any q-bidding. So opener can jump directly to RKCB.

 

My suggested auction:

 

1C 1S

2H 3H

4S 5D

5S 5N

7N

 

3H = GF, 4+hearts, 5+spades

4S = Kickback for hearts

5D = 2, no QH

5S = specific king ask

5N = KS is cheapest king

7N = I can count 13 tricks 3s+2h+2d+5c + extra s, h, d, or squeeze

[PriorKnowledge]

One more comment: Seems to me you should be able to find the grands when you have all 4 aces and all 4 kings and 15 tricks.