Values for Early Protective 3C

[kgsmith]

Hi all

 

Is it right to bid 3♣ immediately with the South cards, or should one have greater general strength?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=st8hq92d75cakt853&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1sp2s]133|200[/hv]

 

Thanks,

Kevin

[gszes]

PASS

 

yikes there are a ton of warning signs here that maybe stepping out with 3c might be a tad dangerous. Lho is unlimited. P still has a chance to back into the bidding if 2s is passed around. It is feasible to go for a huge number opposite a partscore and even down 2 x is horrid at MP opposite an opps game. Will CHO be able to take a joke and remain quiet looking at around 10 hcp and a spade stop (probably not). It just seems bidding 3c here offers the smallest of benefits with huge risks (much more forgivable at MP than IMPS.

[lycier]

3♣ is really a dangerous auction, so I would better pass.

[neilkaz]

I need more than this hand to bid 3♣ here esp. at these colors.

[Phil]

No but make sure partner doesn't mind doubling 1S on 3334 13 counts otherwise you'll get stolen from.

[kgsmith]

Thanks for the clarification. It seems like even at reverse vulnerability the general sentiment would be to pass.

[PhantomSac]

Thanks for the clarification. It seems like even at reverse vulnerability the general sentiment would be to pass.

 

I think passing white/red would be insane

[ggwhiz]

Bidding 3♣ can get you the lead but on these colors partner is going to take you much too seriously. I had a (very) short lived partnership with a guy that blamed me every time I raised his "for the lead only" bids which he made on a lot worse than this.

 

White, the bid can work in many more ways, good contract even if it's a dive, bump em up, get the lead and when it goes wrong at least you had a better upside.

[daffydoc]

personally in real live bridge to even consider a bid at any color is BBO style bidding - in real bridge with real partners I wait for pard to reopen - if he can't its not our hand - and occasionally I will be stolen from - but if there is anyone out there who believes this is a 3C bid - please lets set up a big money match - would be my pleasure to play you! daffydoc

[hrothgar]

Marty Bergen used to advocate OBARBIDS

 

Opponents Bid And Raise Balance In Direct Seat

 

Not sure if he would bid 3♣ red versus white, but switch the vulnerability and I think that he would

Probably even at equal vul

[akwoo]

I would bid white at matchpoints and pass otherwise.

[Zelandakh]

Marty Bergen used to advocate OBARBIDS

 

Not sure if he would bid 3♣ red versus white, but switch the vulnerability and I think that he would

Probably even at equal vul

Bergen is also commonly quoted with the expression "Colors are for children." (American spelling for MB B-) )

[Caitlynne]

I think 3C is 100% clear. And, in fact, I think it is so clear that I would immediately stop playing with someone as my partner who failed to make a 3C bid here - at any vulnerability at any form of the game - unless they immediate apologized after the session with the explanation that a purple cow with orange stripes flew by and distracted them at their turn to bid. That is how bad I think it is to Pass!

 

There are several things going for a 3C bid:

 

1. Partner is on lead. You want a club lead. You have a pretty darned good suit there and you have SIX of them.

 

2. 3C is a pre-balance - it does not show much in terms of honor strength.

 

3. 3C is relatively safe. The opponents have established an 8 or 9 card spade fit and that makes your side almost certain to have an 8 card fit elsewhere.

 

4. If you Pass and LHO also passes, partner may not be able to act. After all, if the auction goes that way, the opponents are likely to have only an 8 card spade fit. That means partner has 3 spades and is likely to be balanced. We know partner has about a 10 HCP hand. Given all this, partner is unlikely to balance. Would you balance holding Jxx, KTxx, Axx, Qxx? Not likely. How about with Kxx, Axx, Axxx, xxx? Never. But you can probably make 3C while 2S is making in each case.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=st8hq92d75cakt853&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1sp2s]133|200|

 

Is it right to bid 3♣ immediately with the South cards, or should one have greater general strength?[/hv]

IMO, it depends on scoring method, vulnerability, style, and partnership agreement. I rank

 

1. 3♣ = Light brigade, At MPs, always. At imps, non-vul. Especially, playing for the 1st time with Phantomsac :)
2. Pass = Vul, last board of the match, with a 20 imp lead. Playing for the last time with Caitlynne :(

Another interesting question is whether and how to pre-protect after

 

(1♠) Pass (2N/3♣/♦/♥/♠) ?? where responder's bid promises 4+ card support (e.g. Bergen).

[daffydoc]

Well - very interesting responses - every bidder is happily assuming that partner holds the balancing hand of 10+hcp and opponents are stopping in 2S - WELL LHO has opened and is unlimited - RHO bid 2S which most of the time these days shows a constructive raise - why would anyone think that pard holds 10+ hcp - that is a rosy view - must be looking thru tinted glasses - anyone who bids on this hand has not played serious money bridge - that I am 100% sure of - the bidders apparently do not care that they go for a number - after all its only a number - NOT CASH. daffydoc

[helene_t]

I would venture 3♣ at matchpoints and maybe even at IMPs, and at love all I would consider it a non-problem. But I concede that I have been spoiled playing against opps who don't double enough.

[NickRW]

But I concede that I have been spoiled playing against opps who don't double enough.

 

I've been "spoiled" by partners who don't reopen enough in the pass out seat, as Phil highlights

[helene_t]

I've been "spoiled" by partners who don't reopen enough in the pass out seat, as Phil highlights

Yes that is also a consideration, but here partner is likely to have three spades (especially if opps play Bergen so that the 2♠ bid denies four-card support) so partner can't usually reopen. If partner has a 3343 13-count we have to take the bull by its horns ourselves.

 

Phil was talking about doubling the 1♠ opening with a 3343 13-count. This would certainly make it safer to pass with this hand. But I am yet to be convinced:

- Doubling with a 3343 may induce partner to overcompete, or to undercompete on the next deal where we have a more classical take-out double.

- Doubling with a lot of non-ideal hands with opening strength makes it easier for opps to place the honours when we end up defending.

- On this particular hand it is as much about the lead as about not being stolen from. A 3♣ bid might hold them to nine tricks.

[Charlie Yu]

I expect a 13+ count for a 3C bid here. Otherwise how can p know when to advance