Simple Forcing Question

[Infidel]

I don't see how Ingberman (or Lebensohl) would apply. Bidding 2S in this auction is a jump shift, not a reverse.

I had this discussion with a partner a year or so ago; she could not grasp the distinction between the reverse and Jump shift here...so I gave up, treated opener's jump shift as if it were a reverse, which let me use Lebensohl to control weaker jumps. So we wound up rebidding 2S in the questioned sequence on 16+ (which immediately became "a good 15," and at least once on 14...), limiting the 1S rebid to a (clearly NF) minimum. It worked so well I now advocate it to partners who DO understand the difference. B-)

[helene_t]

If 2♠ is just 16+, do you also use it with a 43(15) 16-count after partner responds 1♥?

 

If so, do you plan to show your 3-card heart support? Probably not since

1♣-1♥

2♠-2NT*

3♥

would be 18+ and (in principle) forcing.

 

But that means that you can easily miss a 5-3 hearts fit.

 

Maybe the method has enough upsided that it is worth it, but this strikes me as a disadvantage.

[Cyberyeti]

Pass 1D. WTP? Are you happy with P rebidding 3H with 16 count?

 

Qxx-Kxxx-x-xxxxx

 

Yeah, AKJx, Axxx, Axxx, x looks fine :) and 3♥ (or 4♥) plays much better than 1♦.

[mgoetze]

Yes but it shows the same strength and shape so it applies in my partnership.

 

In most partnerships I play that a jump shift to the two-level has the same tempo as a reverse, i.e., not game-forcing but only forcing for one round

 

So do the two of you play together? :P

 

I learned that standard is reverse = 16+ (where Lebensohl/Ingbermann makes sense) and jump shift = 18+ (GF). I've not yet found a good reason to deviate from standard in this regard.

[dave_beer]

Qxx-Kxxx-x-xxxxx

 

Yeah, AKJx, Axxx, Axxx, x looks fine :) and 3♥ (or 4♥) plays much better than 1♦.

Except that I would force to game via splinter with your example. In either case, I am probably better off than in 1♦.

[dave_beer]

Pass 1D. WTP? Are you happy with P rebidding 3H with 16 count?

Yes and I am probably better off than letting partner rot in 1♦.

[dave_beer]

If 2♠ is just 16+, do you also use it with a 43(15) 16-count after partner responds 1♥?

 

If so, do you plan to show your 3-card heart support? Probably not since

1♣-1♥

2♠-2NT*

3♥

would be 18+ and (in principle) forcing.

 

But that means that you can easily miss a 5-3 hearts fit.

 

Maybe the method has enough upsided that it is worth it, but this strikes me as a disadvantage.

I don't play that either a reverse or jump shift is 16+. It shows a hand that has reasonable safety in 3 of the minor that I opened (or in some cases 2NT) opposite a hand that can't make a positive rebid. For a balanced or semi-balanced hand that means 18+ HCP and for an unbalanced hand that means the playing strength of a jump rebid of my original suit. I play that failure to reverse denies biddable length in a suit that I could have reversed into.

 

So with 4-3-(5-1) and a hand not good enough to reverse I rebid 1♠ intending to show a strong hand (but limited by failure to reverse) with ♥ support if there is a next round. That does not include a simple preference back to 2♥. With a better hand I reverse but do not take a preference back to ♥ if partner makes a neutral response denying 5+♥.

 

I will miss the 5-3 ♥ fit after a jump shift (where partner can't rebid ♥ with a bad hand) and the auction dies in 3 of my minor.

[steve2005]

Responding on 0 points is almost always a bad idea, partner will often bid way too high.

 

If you play WJS, 1H rebid is usually real and no point to play 1S NF.

Hey it's not my idea and is very common but I will defend it. Say partner opens 1♣

and you have ♠K432 ♥J9543 ♦543 ♣3

You don't have a a WJS to save you, 1♣ all passed out can easily be a disaster at MP or vul at imps

Is better to find a better part-score imho.

I would rather bid 1♥ and take my chances passing any rebid. Partner rebids 2N you may still be able to sign-off in 3♥ if playing Wolf sign-offs.

 

If your playing a short club 2+ as I do responding like this is even more important.

[monikrazy]

If 2♠ is just 16+, do you also use it with a 43(15) 16-count after partner responds 1♥?

 

If so, do you plan to show your 3-card heart support? Probably not since

1♣-1♥

2♠-2NT*

3♥

would be 18+ and (in principle) forcing.

 

But that means that you can easily miss a 5-3 hearts fit.

 

Maybe the method has enough upsided that it is worth it, but this strikes me as a disadvantage.

 

2N is played as a relay to 3C, and normally denies game-forcing values with responder. If responder has a good 5+ points, there is no difficulty at all discovering the fit. The scenario where partnership may not discover the fit is when responder has 5 hearts and signs off in a longer minor. Given sufficient extras, opener may also choose to show his 3-card support even after partner tries to sign-off in a minor

 

 

As to whether a 16-count should bid 2S with 4+ spades and exactly 3 hearts, it depends on overall hand strength.

 

 

For me, something like the hand below would be perfectly sufficient for that bid.

 

AKTx

A9x

x

KQxxx

 

 

 

make it a little worse

KQxx

Axx

x

AKxxx

and I now prefer a 1S bid

 

 

I also have the option of raising to 2H with 3 cards and a good 12-15 points. Meckwell game tries compliment this approach nicely.

[kenberg]

I had this discussion with a partner a year or so ago; she could not grasp the distinction between the reverse and Jump shift here...so I gave up, treated opener's jump shift as if it were a reverse, which let me use Lebensohl to control weaker jumps. So we wound up rebidding 2S in the questioned sequence on 16+ (which immediately became "a good 15," and at least once on 14...), limiting the 1S rebid to a (clearly NF) minimum. It worked so well I now advocate it to partners who DO understand the difference. B-)

 

I thought of you as this thread developed.

Explanation: I payed with Mike (Infidel) recently and he mentioned he wanted to play a 2M rebid by opener in this way, and I agreed. Of course it did not come up. I cannot recall a time when, playing the 2S as an absolute gf, I wished that I were not. But it is probably playable.

 

My thoughts (more of my thoughts, I guess):

Reverses offer few alternatives. Given a 3=1=4=5 shape with strong values, what alternative is there to opening 1C and then, after partner responds 1H, bidding 2D? You need a good hand to do this and you need some agreements about what happens next. But, fundamentally, you bid this way because it shows the suits that you have and there is no reasonable alternative.

 

!C-1H-2S is a different story. 1D-1H-1S is a reasonable way of bidding this hand when strong but w/o gf values. We can argue about which way is better, but there are these alternatives. With the 1C-1H-2D hand there was no decent alternative. (leaving aside big club systems and other such things)

 

No doubt you get something for allowing 1D-1H-2S on less than a gf hand, but you also get something by playing as an absolute gf (or, possibly) as an absolute gf except fot tightly defined sequences ending in 4C.

 

I prefer that 1D-1H-2S be an absolute gf and I doubt that I will be changing my mind about that. But I am a fairly relaxed sort of guy and if someone very much wants to play it this other way, it's ok. There are some agreements that I just won't play, but this one I can live with as long as I am not required to praise it.

[Vampyr]

!C-1H-2S is a different story. 1D-1H-1S is a reasonable way of bidding this hand when strong but w/o gf values. We can argue about which way is better, but there are these alternatives.

 

Another way is to play 1♠ as forcing, and have another use for 2♠. This may be desirable if you have some sort of reverse toy.

[kenberg]

Another way is to play 1♠ as forcing, and have another use for 2♠. This may be desirable if you have some sort of reverse toy.

 

Agreed. But point was that while with the had where you bid 1C-1H-2D you pretty much most bid it that way and then play some follow-up gadget, with a 19 point auction of 1D-1H- some number of spades you can simply bid 1S and go from there in a natural manner. Assuming that partner can but seldom does pass 1S you should be fine. When he passes, you may be disappointed until you see the dummy, but after which you will thank him. You hhave the natural auction 1D-1H-1S w/o game forcing values and the natural auction 1D-1H-2S with gf values.

 

Partly it depends on philosophy. When a choice of approaches is available, I opt for natural unless there is convincing evidence to the contrary. And I can be hard to convince. If I wanted to form a dedicated partnership with an elaborate system and lengthy notes, perhaps I would see things differently. But in most partnerships i have had, there are a number of undiscussed sequences and so those that require minimal discussion (eg 1D-1H-1S is not quite forcing but seldom passed, 1D-1H-2S is gf, now deal the cards) are attractive to me.

[mycroft]

Pass 1D. WTP? Are you happy with P rebidding 3H with 16 count?

No, but partner won't - she'll bid 2♥. Oh, did I forget to mention I'm playing K/S?

 

In a strong NT system, if partner raises to 3♥ with only 16, it will play very well unless the hearts are garbage and the diamonds are strong-but-not-solid. I get my ruffs in the bad heart hand, I have a nice 4-4 fit and can pull trumps with K and partner's honours, any tricks he has are coming home in either contract, *and he'll have shortness too* (or she would have opened 1NT, no?) so I have the option of a crossruff. In 1♦, the ruffs are in the long hand, the "long hand" could be only 4 (likely not, but yeah), and I have one trick. I am reasonably certain that my hand plays at least two tricks better in a 4=4 heart fit than in a 5=1 diamond fit.

 

So, yeah, I'm happy. What I'm not as happy with (and why I tend to pass 1♦, bad though it is, with xxx Kxxx x xxxxx) is 2NT on a crappy 4=3=4=2 18 count. And that's what *my* partners always do. But Bridge is an optimist's game, I'm told.

[Zelandakh]

2N is played as a relay to 3C, and normally denies game-forcing values with responder.

I assume you mean puppet or marionette here rather than relay. This is precisely the point Helene was making to be honest. A direct 3♥ over 2NT shows extras so 3♣ needs to be bid with a minimum hand. But 3♣ is non-forcing so it is by no means certain that the 5-3 heart fit will come to light when Opener holds a 4=3=1=5 16-17 count and Responder has 5 hearts but not enough values to bid on.