balancing with 2-suiter

[han]

A friend of mine had AJxxxx AQJxx xx -, and the bidding went 1C-pass-pass to him. How would you plan to bid this hand?

 

If you choose 1S, assume that it goes pass-pass-2C next.

 

If you choose 2C, assume that it goes pass-2H-pass next.

 

If you choose "other", please explain.

[Chamaco]

This is a very interesting thread, and I am actually confused about the issue, looking forward to hear experts' replies.

 

Why am I confused ?

Mostly because of Mike Lawrence's suggestion.

He says that in the balancing seat, a cuebid of opps suit is NOT Michaels anymore, but a generic forcing bid for a battleship.

Also, according to ML, 2NT in the balancing seat would be a natural 20+ hand.

 

His argument look sound (4th seat needs no longer preempt nor anticipate his shape.

 

However, I wonder what to bid with an unbid 2 suiter (especially 55 major) and a non minimum opener, say 14-15 hcp.

Such hands have considerable power, but doubling for takeout with 55 usually spells trouble; on the other hand, a single up-the line overcall tends to show a minimum/marginal opener, whereas a jumpbid shows a 1 suiter.

 

So I still wonder what to do with good 2suiters in the balancing seat

[Rebound]

I would still like micheals to be on here since showing my shape is important given that partner is a passed hand. If I catch him with 4-4 in the majors, say, we could make game on very little in HCP.

[fred]

Mike Lawrence's opinion is certainly worthy of respect, but using Michaels in the balancing position is "standard" is in American expert community (ie if you sat down with a random expert and this undiscussed sequence came up, you would both assume Michaels and not even think twice about it).

 

Not so with a jump to 2NT in the balancing position. My guess is that most serious USA pairs play this to show a balanced hand with a specific range rather than the minors (but I could easily be wrong - the sequence is not exactly common enough for me to have a large sample).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Gerben42]

ML states that strong 2-suiters are VERY rare in this situation and he is correct. However now that you DO have one, you need to bid something :P

 

I would bid an intermediate 2♠. Note that WJO are also off in balancing.

[mike777]

4 clubs

 

Get this hand off my chest in one bid. If my p thinks I got clubs then my error 100% for playing with them. If my p thinks I have some ordinary Michaels hand, my error 100% for playing with them.

[awm]

Agree with Fred that 2♣ is Michaels. :P

 

I'll bid 2♠ over partner's heart bid, showing game interest with longer spades than hearts. This shows extras but partner can pass; if partner has no real fit for either major this bid may well improve the contract. If partner bids hearts again at the three level I'll pass; we should have at least a 5-3 fit in this case and I'm willing to play three hearts.

[pclayton]

Fred's probably right about the Q in the balance being Michaels among experts; although perhaps not among regular partnerships. I don't play it myself - I play it the same as Lawrence suggests. 2N in the balance is a balanced 18-20(-)

 

The weaker 2 suiters are handled easily with Mini-ELC.

 

The subject hand with its 5 losers is probably a minimum Q for me, so I would pass pard's preference.

[flytoox]

I choose 1S, hoping it wont be passed out. If I get another chance, I will jump rebid 3H.

[HeartA]

bid 2C and try game later.

[luke warm]

i like 4C myself, but i'd feel ill if partner raised... or passed

[whereagles]

I actually have agreements on this. 4C is for the majors, around 4-5 losers.

[the hog]

I like 4C as well.

We play 2NT as 18-20 in the pass out seat and 2C as a really big hand.

[Chamaco]

QUESTION TO THE 4C BIDDERS

 

I like this agreement (4C over 1C in the balancing seat shows a major 2 suiter).

 

But what when opps opening is a major and you have a major-minor 2 suiter ?

In thois case, bypassing 3NT is risky, if pard is in misfit with our major.

 

E.g.

1H-p-p-?

 

And you hold

♠AQJxx

♥x

♦AQJxx

♣xx

[Free]

I really don't get this problem... Where are all the HCP gone to? I bid 1♠ in 4th seat (seems quite obvious to me), and LHO AND MY PARTNER pass? :D There's something wrong with either my partner or one of my opponents.

[flytoox]

I think 3C is actually a spare bid. In balanced seat, with a solid suit and if you want pd to bid 3N with a stopper, you can jump to 3 level in your suit, like, (1c)-p-p-3D. (1c)-p-p-2D should show a good suit but need help in the suit, intermediate strength.

 

So perhaps jump cuebid should some kind of two suiters. Playing 4C as major two suiters is sensible.

[hotShot]

First off all it is a question of agreement. There are lots of valid agreements around, but the only one that counts is that what i have with my partner.

 

And if my partner is not ML and i agreed to play Michaels, than I'm happy to bid 2♣ here.

 

As Free correctly points out, the question is: "Where are the HCP's?" My partner and RHO did not find a bid. So my RHO is really weak, but what about partner?

If he's weak too, LHO might have a strong hand with long minors. If he jumps to 3♦ to show 6+♣ and 4+♦ with a strong hand, i will have a hard time to show my second suit, and we might overbid by than.

 

Yes 2 suites in the 4th seat are rare, and it might be useful to make a different agreement, but if you have no other, Michaels is definitly a good choice here.

 

If I get a sign of life from partner, i can bid on to game if i like. But if he's weak i might be happy to play at the 2 level.

[luke warm]

QUESTION TO THE 4C BIDDERS

 

1H-p-p-?

 

And you hold

♠AQJxx

♥x

♦AQJxx

♣xx

first of all, on the original hand i bid 4C because i want to be in game in whichever major partner prefers.. if i wanted more input or thought game unlikely, i'd have bid 2C on that one

 

on yours, i bid 2H... if the diamonds and clubs are reversed, i bid 3C

[fred]

first of all, on the original hand i bid 4C because i want to be in game in whichever major partner prefers..

I don't think it is unreasonable to insist on game on the original hand, but I don't think that 4C is the best way to do this.

 

The reason is that partner, with 2-2 or 3-3 in the majors, will bid hearts and you will end up playing in the wrong suit.

 

I think it is better to start with 2C (assuming that is Michaels). If partner bids 2H you can jump to 3S (or if you don't think that is forcing you can cuebid 3C instead).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[mike777]

first of all, on the original hand i bid 4C because i want to be in game in whichever major partner prefers..

I don't think it is unreasonable to insist on game on the original hand, but I don't think that 4C is the best way to do this.

 

The reason is that partner, with 2-2 or 3-3 in the majors, will bid hearts and you will end up playing in the wrong suit.

 

I think it is better to start with 2C (assuming that is Michaels). If partner bids 2H you can jump to 3S (or if you don't think that is forcing you can cuebid 3C instead).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

That makes a lot of sense if opp are silent.

 

I am worried that bidding will get very messy over these 1s or 2c or 2s bids in 4th seat and I have not gotten my hand off my chest. Perhaps the hand belongs to 1c opener?

[HeartA]

I really don't get this problem... Where are all the HCP gone to? I bid 1♠ in 4th seat (seems quite obvious to me), and LHO AND MY PARTNER pass? :blink: There's something wrong with either my partner or one of my opponents.

I don't agree. 1S can be passed out, when opener got minimum (and with some ♠s), pd got 7 hcp or so without fit for ♠.

[fred]

first of all, on the original hand i bid 4C because i want to be in game in whichever major partner prefers..

I don't think it is unreasonable to insist on game on the original hand, but I don't think that 4C is the best way to do this.

 

The reason is that partner, with 2-2 or 3-3 in the majors, will bid hearts and you will end up playing in the wrong suit.

 

I think it is better to start with 2C (assuming that is Michaels). If partner bids 2H you can jump to 3S (or if you don't think that is forcing you can cuebid 3C instead).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

That makes a lot of sense if opp are silent.

 

I am worried that bidding will get very messy over these 1s or 2c or 2s bids in 4th seat and I have not gotten my hand off my chest. Perhaps the hand belongs to 1c opener?

For sure the preemptive effect of 4C could be relevant, but my judgment suggests that making sure you get to the right suit will be relevant more often.

 

If you were always planning on bidding to the 4-level, you can still do that after bidding "only" 2C, regardless of whether or not there is competition. On some deals the competition might even help you (it might tell you that it is not safe to bid to the 4-level, it might help you or your partner play the hand, or partner might be in a position to make a penalty double in front of you).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Guest Jlall]

2C then make a try... 4C seems way too unilateral for me. However I think over that maybe a bid of 4D would show equal preference (maybe?)

[the hog]

Quote Fred:

"The reason is that partner, with 2-2 or 3-3 in the majors, will bid hearts and you will end up playing in the wrong suit."

 

I think with this pd would bid 4D- pick your better Major.

[fred]

Quote Fred:

"The reason is that partner, with 2-2 or 3-3 in the majors, will bid hearts and you will end up playing in the wrong suit."

 

I think with this pd would bid 4D- pick your better Major.

Probably that's what 4D *should* mean, but depending on partner to be on the same wavelength when you make an undiscussed artificial bid is too scary for me. In my regular partnerships we have agreed that, after we bid Michaels to show both majors, a bid of the opponent's minor is a cuebid, but a bid of the other minor is natural and non-forcing. In the absense of discussion concerning the sequence in question, I would attempt to apply existing agreements from similar auctions. Your partnership won't utilize the "best possible" meanings for all undiscussed sequences if you adopt this approach, but at least you will minimize the chances of a misunderstanding.

 

And yes, I do think it is possible that partner might pass over 1C and want to suggest diamonds as a place to play when the auction goes this way (he could have something like x x J1098xxx Qxxx). I also think that it would be foolish to cater to a hand like this if you bothered to discuss this auction, but in my view if you start inventing conventions as you play, you are asking trouble. There is a lot to be said for playing that all undiscussed bids that could be natural are natural.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com