Liversidge Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 1NT (2♥) X (P) ? Penalty or takeout? (We aren't yet up to taking on Rubensohl) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagles123 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 takeout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 I'd tend to agree it should be takeout. However, I am not sure that you can be certain without partnership discussion as several players I've known assume it is penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 I'd tend to agree it should be takeout. However, I am not sure that you can be certain without partnership discussion as several players I've known assume it is penalty. It certainly used to be assumed to be penalty. It's playable either way, you just need to know what you're doing. Whatever you play 1N-(2x)-X as, 1N-(3x)-X should be takeout 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 Penalty is very reasonable if playing weak nt: - The weak nt "forces" opps to enter the auction with strongish hands even if they don't quite have the shape or suit quality for doing so safely- The weak nt opener is less likely than a strong nt opener to reopen so it is not so attractive to "trap pass" when playing weak nt. That said, if you don't play any "sohl" convention you really need the negative double here, otherwise too many hands become unbiddable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve2005 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 As Cyber says is playable either way as long as both of you on same page. However, if people are overcalling indiscriminately over your 1N it may be a good idea to have a penalty double in your arsenal. Note: it is still possible to collect a penalty playing negative doubles but is a more advanced topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liversidge Posted January 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 That said, if you don't play any "sohl" convention you really need the negative double here, otherwise too many hands become unbiddable. I thought at first that 'negative' was an error and you meant 'penalty'. Until now I have never come across the negative double used after partner's 1NT has been overcalled, but having googled it I have found it on Larry Cohen's site, in the 'advanced' section! As partner and I are just getting the hang of the standard negative double and have Rubensohl in sight for the future, I think it is probably better to agree for the double to show penalty based on what I have been picking up from answers so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 I thought at first that 'negative' was an error and you meant 'penalty'. Until now I have never come across the negative double used after partner's 1NT has been overcalled, but having googled it I have found it on Larry Cohen's site, in the 'advanced' section! As partner and I are just getting the hang of the standard negative double and have Rubensohl in sight for the future, I think it is probably better to keep the double for penalty or takeout - tending towards penalty from what I am reading.Negative or takeout mean the same thing in this context, or at least people use them that way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 I mean, you could argue that after 1NT-(2H)-x The takeout X would just show shortish hearts and 3+ in the other suits, while a negative X would specifically promise 4 spades saying not much about the other suits, but in practice nobody would play this second method, because opener hasn't promised a suit yet. Plus, it's common to call doubles like1D-(3S)-x as negative, even though it doesn't promise 4 hearts unconditionally. So takeout doubles and negative doubles are the same here. I don't think it matters how you call them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 From a weak NT (in a world of 15-17) standpoint, we switched from penalty to takeout doubles. The penalty double is nice and gets great results when it comes out. However, the many -5s and 25%s we got when they bid and "we have a fit, we just don't know where" ...and the strong NTers are having auctions like 1m-(1♥)-X instead of 1NT-(2♥)-? convinced us that we needed a takeout call, and double it was. Just on sheer frequency, we're doubling at least 3-4 times as often as we used to, and not feeling like our hands are tied. Yes, it's frustrating when we have a penalty double and partner doesn't cooperate (and it's frustrating when we don't have a penalty double and partner *does* cooperate), but that's rare. In a world where "the field" isn't 90% strong NT, the arguments may change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 This auction isn't terribly different than: 1C 2H X. I suppose you don't have to play negative doubles here but why wouldn't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 This auction isn't terribly different than: 1C 2H X. I suppose you don't have to play negative doubles here but why wouldn't you? It's extremely different. You can know you don't have game on and have at least 6 trumps between you with your nice 4 card holding sitting over at least 5 of them with dummy guaranteed to hold 2 at most. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 It's extremely different. You can know you don't have game on and have at least 6 trumps between you with your nice 4 card holding sitting over at least 5 of them with dummy guaranteed to hold 2 at most. I don't know. A 1C opening is, what, equivalent to a weak NT something like 65% of the time? When partner opens a weak NT and holds a doubleton heart, reopening seems pretty obvious. The only time I'd want to play a penalty x is either when 1) we have so many trumps and opener cannot reopen, or, 2)we don't have a tremendous trump stack but we everything covered but trump and they are vul.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 Although it is a penalty double by the old rules, I would suggest you play it as takeout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 I don't know. A 1C opening is, what, equivalent to a weak NT something like 65% of the time? When partner opens a weak NT and holds a doubleton heart, reopening seems pretty obvious. The only time I'd want to play a penalty x is either when 1) we have so many trumps and opener cannot reopen, or, 2)we don't have a tremendous trump stack but we everything covered but trump and they are vul.. Depends to some extent which hands you open 1♣ and which 1♦ for the %. So holding ♥Q109x and a 3433 10 count, it's easy if you have a penalty double available. You could find pd has a 3334 12 count where he probably passes, or a bigger hand with short hearts where he reopens with a double and you should have been bidding 3N/5m rather than taking an inadequate penalty, or a weak NT with a doubleton heart where pass is right, but you have no way of knowing what's right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daffydoc Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 used to play pen on two level - neg on 3 level - have changed to both neg with NT opener responsible to balance with dbl if short in opp suit. However your question is only answerable if partnership has an agreement - otherwise its a guess. daffydoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourdad Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Seems to me it depends on what the 2♥ bid is?Natural? DONT? CAPP? Against Natural or CAPP, my partnersip agreements are the X is a "stolen bid", that is, a transfer to spades. Against DONT it is penalty. This is one of those areas where only detailed partnership agreements will prosper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitlynne Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 There are certainly benefits to playing the double as negative/takeout, but the standard meaning in the absence of discussion is unequivocally penalty. If you are playing a weak 1NT opening, most pairs will prefer to keep the standard meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 We play the doubles as negative here in a strong notrump structure and the flip side is that the 1nt opener (after an overcall has been passed back to them) has to re-open with double on many hands to protect a possible penalty pass from 3rd position. Opening a weak notrump and going through the fear and loathing of when to re-open when the overcall is passed back to you is something to be avoided so penalty is a good choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zillahandp Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Penalties if point based p will lead trumps in most circumstances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar13 Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Edgar Kaplan advocated for takeout doubles of suit overcalls of a weak NT to collect more penalties. The NT opener is known to be balanced and is more likely to have four cards in the enemy suit than responder. Plus some of the lost penalties when responder does have the length come back when opener reopens with a takeout double after responder's pass. This last part happens even more frequently after a strong NT, as opener is able to reopen more often. I have been in this camp ever since I read the KS system book back in the 70's, and it has paid well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 1NT (2♥) X (P) ? Penalty or takeout? (We aren't yet up to taking on Rubensohl) IMO this double should be competitive: a willingness to compete, with coresponding values, usually including 2+ cards in opponent's suit; but you can have a singleton if you are 4441. You might even have 3+ cards, as the first move with a good hand. Opener will usually remove the double unless he has 4 cards in opponent's suit. This is consistent with double by the 1N opener being for T/O, which seems to be a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrussell Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Caitlynne is correct:"in the absence of discussion is unequivocally penalty" In a BBO ACBL tournament however, absent any discussion, it's quite likely partner's double of 2♥ is a transfer to spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 It matters very little technically IMO (there are significant pros and cons but they probably roughly even out). This means that it is best just to play whatever is easier. You may decide to player whatever your partner plays in other partnerships so he is less likely to forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmsmith Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 Penalty. Do the math! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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