Bidding twice opposite a takeout double

[lmilne]

Imagine your LHO opens 1♥, your partner doubles, next hand passes and:

 

A) you bid 1♠, LHO bids 2♥, pass, pass, you bid 3♣

B) you bid 2♣, LHO bids 2♥, pass, pass, you bid 2♠.

 

What does each sequence show about relative suit lengths, and which (if either) shows a stronger hand?

 

P.S. this conversation was sparked by the hand ♠Qxxx ♥QTx ♦void ♣KT8xxx. How would you respond to partner's double?

[helene_t]

Spades then clubs shows 4♠5♣

 

Clubs then spades is interesting. Maybe 4♠6♣?

[gnasher]

Clubs then spades is interesting. Maybe 4♠6♣?

How about 3-5?

[gwnn]

For the first auction, I don't mind 4♠4+♣, although it's rather risky on 44 only. On the 2-level, I definitely it should be 4M4+m, not necessarily 5+. Maybe I should rethink this approach, given that I sometimes double on a doubleton in an unbid minor, but then I would nearly always have 4 cards in the unbid major, so I guess not.

[nige1]

Imagine your LHO opens 1♥, your partner doubles, next hand passes and:

A) you bid 1♠, LHO bids 2♥, pass, pass, you bid 3♣

B) you bid 2♣, LHO bids 2♥, pass, pass, you bid 2♠.

What does each sequence show about relative suit lengths, and which (if either) shows a stronger hand?

P.S. this conversation was sparked by the hand ♠Qxxx ♥QTx ♦void ♣KT8xxx. How would you respond to partner's double?

IMO, Assuming that jumps tend to show good or 5+ suits ...

• (1♥) Double (Pass) 1♠; (2♥) Pass (Pass) 3♣ shows 4+ ♠s and 4+ ♣s. e.g. ♠ x x x x ♥ x x x ♦ x x ♣ A K x x
• (1♥) Double (Pass) 2♣; (2♥) Pass (Pass) 2♠ shows 4+ ♣s and 3+ ♠s. e.g. ♠ Q x x ♥ x x x ♦ x x x ♣ A Q x x

Both bids show competitive values, typically 7-8 HCP. With 9-11 you might bid 1N even without a stop.

[gwnn]

Strongly disagree that 3♣ shows 4+♠ and 4+♣ (as opposed to 4♠4+♣). You should insist on spades if you have 5. Why go to the 3-level when you can play in a 5-3 on the 2 level? Or are you talking about 5♠8♣?

[daffydoc]

Not sure why but no one has suggested 3c as the immediate response? 6 card suit and a void - great playing hand - if pard happens to now bid 3d showing good suit and good hand i have a pure 3S bid available. And pard should now know i have 9+ cards in the blacks with some values. pretty clear to me. daffydoc

[fourdad]

With regular partners, our agreement would be that the X guaranteed 4♠ w/ 15 or less points as the TOX would never bid again.

 

W/ the ♦ void and a known fit, I value the hand at 10 TP and would bid TWO ♠. either a 1♠ or 2♣ bid can be made w/ ZERO points as a bid is forced by the TOX, true?

 

If the TOX can bid again, you have game, if not, your actions have stressed the LHO's next bid.

[ifluffette]

At bridge, you have to look ahead. You have to assume opener might rebid 2♥. So if you respond 1♠, you will have to bid 3♣ at your second turn.

So i would bid 2♣ first, then rebid 2♠​, showing a near positive hand with longer clubs.

[Caitlynne]

The situations are NOT truly comparable because, in each case, partner's 2H cue bid suggests support for the first suit you bid. (Suggests, not promises, since partner could have a very big hand with a long solid suit of his/her own and be looking for a heart stopper; when partner cue bids, he becomes the captain of the auction for the partnership.) Thus ...

 

... when you respond 1S, you are to proceed under the assumption that partner has spade support and make another descriptive bid to limit the nature of your hand. 2S would be the weakest bid you could make. Your decision to bid 3C is forward going, showing club values (and usually 4+ card length). It forces to 3S at least.

 

... when you respond 2C, you are to proceed under the assumption that partner has club support and make another descriptive bid to limit the nature of your hand. 3C would be the weakest bid you could make. 2S is forward going and natural (value and/or length showing), but it may not be quite as good a hand as when you bid 1S first and follow it with 3C simply because 2S is "on the way" to 3C, the level your p's 2H cue bid forced the partnership to reach. If partner has 4 card spade support, partner will often raise the 2S bid or bid 3D (natural and forcing, perhaps temporizing; it is not a long strong diamond suit since partner failed to bid 2D or 3D over 2C).

 

With the actual hand, I would bid 2C and follow with 2S. Partner's cue bid committed the partnership to the 3C level, so there is no danger partner will call Pass after 2S. And now ...

 

... if partner bids 2NT, I will raise to 3NT.

... if partner bids 3C, I have enough to bid 3H or 3NT (depending on how you play 3H).

... if partner bids 3D, I will bid 3NT (show the heart values).

... if partner bids 3H, I will bid 3NT (show the heart values).

... if partner bids 3S, I will bid 4C (forcing - sniffing for slam since I could have had a working King less for 2S).

... if partner bids 4S (rare), I will pass.

[gwnn]

Partner did not cue 2♥. Opener rebid it.

 

For everyone's convenience, these are the two auctions:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sq742hqt2dckt8432&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1hdp1s2hpp3c]133|200[/hv]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq742hqt2dckt8432&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1hdp2c2hpp2s]133|200[/hv]

[daffydoc]

This distortion of suit lengths that is popular on BBO is really somewhat disturbing - I have seen many people bid 5 card majors before 7 card minors and similar actions which do usually result in bad contracts. With a two card differential it is pretty clear to bid the longer suit first. daffydoc

[zillahandp]

One spade is a forced response and says four spades and 0+, so to follow with 3c isa nonsense, with no values hence 2c should have been first response then 2s over 2hts showing 5/4 and 6/8, 2c also shows 0+.until next bid but would deny 4s. In short on the hand given with seven pts 1s is wrong

[gnasher]

For the first auction, I don't mind 4♠4+♣, although it's rather risky on 44 only. On the 2-level, I definitely it should be 4M4+m, not necessarily 5+. Maybe I should rethink this approach, given that I sometimes double on a doubleton in an unbid minor, but then I would nearly always have 4 cards in the unbid major, so I guess not.

If you were 4-4 wouldn't you just double on the second round?

[gwnn]

If you were 4-4 wouldn't you just double on the second round?

I guess you mean that we'll find the 4-4 through a scrambling 2NT from partner? I haven't thought it through a lot. I'm always a bit confused about "DSIP": when P doesn't know what I hold, how can he DSI? I guess he'd (other than 2S on four cards or a suitable three) just pass with balanced crap, bid 3m with a 5-card suit, bid 2NT with 4-4 in the minors, something like that?

 

I meant more situations when we bid the second suit on the 2-level, which I guess is restricted to (except if responder passes a second suit):

1C-x-p-1M

2C-p-p-2D. :)

[gnasher]

I guess you mean that we'll find the 4-4 through a scrambling 2NT from partner? I haven't thought it through a lot. I'm always a bit confused about "DSIP": when P doesn't know what I hold, how can he DSI? I guess he'd (other than 2S on four cards or a suitable three) just pass with balanced crap, bid 3m with a 5-card suit, bid 2NT with 4-4 in the minors, something like that?

Yes, that, except that I don't think he should pass very often. With a 33(43) shape that merited a double of 1♥, he ought to have good enough spades to bid 2♠.

 

I meant more situations when we bid the second suit on the 2-level, which I guess is restricted to (except if responder passes a second suit):

1C-x-p-1M

2C-p-p-2D. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

Yes, I agree that could easily be 4-4.

[steve2005]

Not sure why but no one has suggested 3c as the immediate response? 6 card suit and a void - great playing hand - if pard happens to now bid 3d showing good suit and good hand i have a pure 3S bid available. And pard should now know i have 9+ cards in the blacks with some values. pretty clear to me. daffydoc

Yes, like really. Poster is worrying about suit lengths, when the real question should be how do I do something forward going for my first bid? 1♠ is a joke for first bid! The only negative to this hand is lack of aces.

[lmilne]

Not sure why but no one has suggested 3c as the immediate response? 6 card suit and a void - great playing hand - if pard happens to now bid 3d showing good suit and good hand i have a pure 3S bid available. And pard should now know i have 9+ cards in the blacks with some values. pretty clear to me. daffydoc

 

 

Yes, like really. Poster is worrying about suit lengths, when the real question should be how do I do something forward going for my first bid? 1♠ is a joke for first bid! The only negative to this hand is lack of aces.

 

One issue is that partner might pass opposite 3♣ but raise 1♠ to 2. I hear the scoffing already, but showing our major suit can get us to games that 3♣ misses. I have some (albeit somewhat disgusted) sympathy for a 2♠ bid though!

[Phil]

This distortion of suit lengths that is popular on BBO is really somewhat disturbing - I have seen many people bid 5 card majors before 7 card minors and similar actions which do usually result in bad contracts. With a two card differential it is pretty clear to bid the longer suit first. daffydoc

 

There's no distortion. Partner wants us to bid a major and that's our priority. In the actual case partner largely denies 4S by passing 2H so 3C is pretty safe. Reaching 5C isn't a huge priority here, but the rebid of the minor shows a longer suit by reference.

 

In other instances if we had a weaker hand we'd bury the spade suit if the opponents bid to 3H by our next opportunity.

 

But I'm troubled by your global remark about distorting suit lengths with 5-7. The only other case I can think of is skipping diamonds after a 1C opening to show a major.

[Phil]

Yes, like really. Poster is worrying about suit lengths, when the real question should be how do I do something forward going for my first bid? 1♠ is a joke for first bid! The only negative to this hand is lack of aces.

 

3C is right on values but otherwise horrible. Partner will be passing 3C with vanilla 13 counts with 4s and that's terrible.

[wanoff]

For me both would show 5C-4S but the hand type that bids 2♣ first is top whack for a hand unable to force.

[aguahombre]

For me both would show 5C-4S but the hand type that bids 2♣ first is top whack for a hand unable to force.

IOW, with 4-5 in the blacks and (say) 7-8 HCP, you expect and are prepared for more bidding and another chance. I am taking this one to the bank; it is soooo right, and in the decades of playing I sheepishly admit being oblivious to the idea.

 

Especially opposite a partner whose takeout Doubles have some resemblance to takeout Doubles, the expectation that someone will make another bid is extremely high when I have this pattern and shape. Will Partner know I am not 3-5 if she is the one who proceeds with 2d or 2h? Maybe not, but will live with that.

[LAVENDERi]

(B) is easy to think. 2C...2S means your clubs have at least one more than your spades. You can't bid like that with spades as long as or less than clubs because highers score better. Just be careful of (A). 1S...3C means 4+S&4+C but not always 5+S&4+C. You can bid like that with spades as long as clubs because highers score better than minors. Moreover, (A) is absolutely stronger than (B) because (A) is at a higher level on the second responce.

 

However, you have clubs two more than spades. For reasonable logic and for a better contract, bid the much longer suit first. Highers absolutely score better than minors when you make all the contracts. But highers can score awfully when they are much more hard to play than minors.