Jumpreverse gameforcing

[UdcaDenny]

We play 2/1 with gameforcing jumpreverse. I had following hand: 10xx 10xxx AJ9x xx and P opened 1♣. After my 1♥ he jumped to 2♠ which I passed. I thought that it was unlikely that we had game with my poor 5 points. Was it wrong to pass ? Yes or no and add a comment please if you like.

[SteveMoe]

You should raise partner to 3♠. You have 1 sure trick, and a potential extra trick in ♦ or from a potential ♣ ruff. You should let partner drive after a jump shift.

 

By the way, jump reverse is technically a jump to a suit ranking under responder's strain. Many play reverses and jump shifts as game forcing. Usually opener has a 5-loser or better hand.

[gordontd]

You should raise partner to 3♠.

I don't think you should raise with only three spades. Partner is most unlikely to have more than four of them. I would rebid 2NT, since all your points are in the unbid suit. When partner makes a game-forcing bid, you shouldn't pass.

[fourdad]

If you play gameforcing jump reverse, then play it!!

 

 

Seems to me that unilaterally altering partnership agreemenst is a sometimes incurable disease.

 

You have diamond stops, bid 3NT. Just because you might pass 1C, is not a reason to pass a game forcing bid.

[1eyedjack]

Just because you *might* pass 1C, is not a reason to pass a game forcing bid.

Emphasis added by me.

 

However, if you SHOULD HAVE passed 1C, then that can be a reason to pass a game forcing bid. Although to do so absolutely confirms that you should have passed 1C.

 

1C is not game forcing. It is not even forcing. If he subsequently decides to game force it is based largely on his trust that your own bids as responder are kosher. You may be in the privileged position of knowing otherwise.

 

Should you have passed 1C on this hand? Personally I would not, so neither would I pass 2S.

[gwnn]

Yes it was wrong to pass.

 

Funny story: I had a 4117 17 count or so. It went

 

1C-1H

2S-pass

 

after I made 10 tricks in a 4-3 fit (11 or 12 were easy in clubs), my partner said "why don't you bid 1S, then we can bid on." {he was aware of the fact that 2S was GF or at least F}

[daffydoc]

If you play jump reverse( don't like that term - it was a jump shift) GF then either you pass the opening bid or respond - you lose all partnership trust if you make unilateral decisions like that - besides you have quite a nice dam stop with AJ9x - but the main thing is if you want to keep this partner DONT pass forcing bids. daffydoc

[Caitlynne]

Yes, you were completely wrong to Pass and doing so constituted an egregious violation of partnership. Your partner's 2♠ rebid was/is 100% forcing TO GAME, not just one round. Whenever a 100% game forcing bid is made, you may NEVER pass a non-game bid - at least if you ever want to play with a player worth partnering. This type of situation is NOT about bridge or bidding judgment; it is about partnership trust and commitment to honoring your systemic agreements. You did not play nicely in the sandbox and you deserve to get voted off the island.

[ArtK78]

A "jump reverse" is a bid one higher than a reverse. Examples:

 

1♣ - 1♥

3♦

 

1♦ - 1♠

3♥

 

Since almost all players play that a reverse is a one-round force, a jump reverse is not necessary to make a forcing bid. I assign a special meaning to a jump reverse - a splinter bid which is either invitational to game (mini-splinter) or too good to merely make a game forcing bid (maxi-splinter). But that is not the issue in this thread.

 

The bidding given - 1♣ - 1♥ - 2♠ - is a jump shift. It is 100% forcing. Still, I have seen some arguments made that there can be legitimate reasons to pass the jump shift. But I wouldn't recommend doing so.

[1eyedjack]

This is not a good hand to illustrate the point, as responder is not ashamed of the 1D bid. I would be interested to see the full hand. 10 tricks may have rolled in, but that does not necessarily make it (or any other game) a fantastic spot.

 

On another day, partnership trust evaporates for a few seconds - until dummy hits. It is miraculous how partnership trust suddenly gets restored when the dust clears and he finds that he has made 8 tricks on the nose.

 

Passing 2S is no less a unilateral decision than was the decision to respond 1D in the first place when pass of 1C would have been the agreed partnership call for the hand.

 

Partners who leap up and down in high dudgeon because they lack the imagination that flexibility is not always a bad thing, may be partners best avoided. They are probably the same ones who can't stand it when their partner psychs.

 

Fortunately for me, GIB is my partner a lot of the time, and never gets irritated. I probably would not depart from system so much if GIB were not also my opponents, but the odd departure seems to work pretty well, and dare I say it, not always is the defending GIB's action unreasonable in light of it, and might have been quite understandable and logical had it been performed by a human.

 

I have said it before and will probably say it again: I gravitate to partners who are understanding that their partner (ie me) occasionally may have dug myself into a hole because a borderline decision taken earlier in the auction did not develop as planned. If I pass a forcing bid it is not because I have forgotten that it is forcing, but because taking all factors into account I consider that passing is the odds on move. That does not mean that it will work every time, but my partners know that and they know that I know it.

[fourdad]

Emphasis added by me.

 

However, if you SHOULD HAVE passed 1C, then that can be a reason to pass a game forcing bid. Although to do so absolutely confirms that you should have passed 1C.

 

1C is not game forcing. It is not even forcing. If he subsequently decides to game force it is based largely on his trust that your own bids as responder are kosher. You may be in the privileged position of knowing otherwise.

 

Should you have passed 1C on this hand? Personally I would not, so neither would I pass 2S.

 

If you SHOULD HAVE passed 1C and then pass a gameforcing bid, you have violated partnership agreements TWICE in one hand. I would wonder why your pd would ever play with you again!

[1eyedjack]

If you SHOULD HAVE passed 1C and then pass a gameforcing bid, you have violated partnership agreements TWICE in one hand. I would wonder why your pd would ever play with you again!

Because my partners are sufficiently intelligent and mature to appreciate that no partnership agreement provides a guaranteed path to the right spot, and that such violations, when they arise, are reasoned.

[gwnn]

Shameless plug of a relevant thread I started a few years ago...

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/33608-maybe-im-missing-something/

[Emerald5]

We play 2/1 with gameforcing jumpreverse. I had following hand: 10xx 10xxx AJ9x xx and P opened 1♣. After my 1♥ he jumped to 2♠ which I passed. I thought that it was unlikely that we had game with my poor 5 points. Was it wrong to pass ? Yes or no and add a comment please if you like.

 

In this particular hand after your partners 1C bid, you must pass. The reason for this is your point count. Since you are not playing precision, there is no reason to mislead your partner. If you feared leaving him in a possible convenient minor, then since u do not have the required point count, if you insist on bidding anything bid 1NT which would better describe your hand saying both I have no points and I have a NT distribution. Still again, your partner relies on your bid to actually have what you promised. I would like to know how many points your partner had in his hand.

Since you did indeed bid, then whatever your agreement with your partner was, you must abide by that convention agreed upon; therefore, at that point of no return, you must bid again.

[nullve]

3 systems:

 

A)

 

1♣ = nat.

...1♥ = 5+ hcp, 4+ H

......2♠ = 4+S5+C, GF

.........P = not allowed!

 

B)

 

1♣ = nat.

...1♥ = 0-4 hcp, 4+H2-C (just wants to get out of 1♣) / 5+ hcp, 4+ H

......2♠ = 4+S5+C, GF opposite 5+ hcp

.........P = just wanted to get out of 1♣

 

C)

 

1♣ = nat.

...1♥ = 0-4 hcp, 4+H2-C (just wants to get out of 1♣) / 5+ hcp, 4+ H

......2♠ = 4+S5+C, GF!

.........P = not allowed!

 

I know which one I would pick.

[zillahandp]

Yes

[aguahombre]

Shameless plug of a relevant thread I started a few years ago...

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/33608-maybe-im-missing-something/

In that thread (2009), Phil Clayton contributes this, which is on topic here:

 

"You have to determine these comments within the context of the partnership. For instance, I would never consider passing a forcing bid with a good client (a bad client won't notice). But in all of my regular partnerships, where I expect each of us to think, there is latitude to make anti-partnership bids, ignore signals, etc.."

 

Certainly Opener expects his jump shift rebid to be forcing and the side committed to game. The real concern, if I pass 2♠, is not Partner's reaction at the moment. It is the effect on next time, when he is unsure how to get me to participate in a partnership auction.

 

Here, it would help if Opener would not have jump-shift rebid with a balanced 18-19. IOW, if I decide I had a response, should not be frightened by my own decision. With us, there are two rebids for opener which might contain a whole lot of points but I can pass -- 2nt and 1s. Opener expects the auction to continue, but knows it will die when it should --passing these rebids is unexpected but doesn't violate trust.

[mycroft]

My opinion, which I give as advice to those that would ask, is "you're expected to upgrade and downgrade your hand as the auction comes in. But once you've made a decision, don't change it. If you thought it was a (marginal) opening bid, then don't do anything because 'you don't really have an opener'. It might become a *really really bad* opening bid, but if you change your mind, you were wrong once, guaranteed. If you don't change your mind, you might be wrong twice, sure - but you might have been right the first time and still are."

 

So, once I decide this is worth responding, if partner game forces, I go with it. Yes, as you get to be more of an expert, you can decide that "this is the hand". But as far as I'm concerned, it's a psychic pass (gross and deliberate distortion of your hand) and works just the same to partnership confidence and concern as any other psychic. If your partnership can survive a psychic, then it can survive passing a GF bid (whether the pass is right or wrong, actually).

 

But I'm not good enough yet to make that judgement. There are better players than I, but *I*'m not good enough yet.

 

Note: I play the same way as Agua above. 1♣-1♥; 1♠ is "passable, but partner never does" (I think 5 times in my life, and we've been right each time). Knowing that partner knows that, I know that "even if you fudged your response, I still want to be in game" when partner bids 2♠; partner's expecting "ace and out" or "married KQ and out", so I'm actually happy about my (minimum) response. If I had decided to respond on Txxx Jxxx 9xxx 4, hoping to survive, I might decide to pass 2♠; but *my* partners always respond 2NT rather than 2♠, so I pass 1♣ :-).

[aguahombre]

If I had decided to respond on Txxx Jxxx 9xxx 4, hoping to survive, I might decide to pass 2♠; but *my* partners always respond 2NT rather than 2♠, so I pass 1♣ :-).

Me, too. But, I would have been wrong twice (your phrasing). So, like you say, I pass 1♣. It is so much fun when 4th seat balances and we get to the right number of ♠. We only have to be mature and not chortle.

 

It seems there is frequently another chance, and we are then much better placed to participate, if we haven't been "busy" on the previous round.

[iandayre]

We need to address your terminology. Your partners 2S bid is not a jump reverse. It is a jump shift and is game forcing for the overwhelming majority of 2/1 players. So yes, if you responded, you need to bid again. Obviously 2NT is the call with all your values in the yet-unbid D suit.

 

As ArtK stated, a jump reverse in your auction after 1C-1H would be 3D. And also as he stated, it is best played as a splinter raise. 1C-1H-2D is a reverse which is at least one-round forcing, but not yet forcing to game.

[fourdad]

Because my partners are sufficiently intelligent and mature to appreciate that no partnership agreement provides a guaranteed path to the right spot, and that such violations, when they arise, are reasoned.

 

Being intelligent means NOT playing with those who think that they are "reasonable" when they blatantly ignore partnershipp agreements! Myopic, perhaps, not "reasoned".

[mike777]

We play 2/1 with gameforcing jumpreverse. I had following hand: 10xx 10xxx AJ9x xx and P opened 1♣. After my 1♥ he jumped to 2♠ which I passed. I thought that it was unlikely that we had game with my poor 5 points. Was it wrong to pass ? Yes or no and add a comment please if you like.

 

It seems your 1h was perfectly normal if you play Walsh style and now you have an easy 2nt rebid. You could have so much less.

 

If your partner wants you to pass 1c with this hand then you can discuss that later in the bar.

 

You do not have a "poor" 5 points, your points are just fine. :)

[ArtK78]

Yes it was wrong to pass.

 

Funny story: I had a 4117 17 count or so. It went

 

1C-1H

2S-pass

 

after I made 10 tricks in a 4-3 fit (11 or 12 were easy in clubs), my partner said "why don't you bid 1S, then we can bid on." {he was aware of the fact that 2S was GF or at least F}

This sounds like an old partner of mine, who moved 3000 miles away and I have not seen in quite some time.

 

Many years ago, on the last hand of a one-session IMP pair event at a Sectional, he and I were defending a vulnerable 4♠ contract. He made a lead, and I encouraged a continuation. He switched and the contract made. Immediately after the hand, he started yelling at me "Why did you encourage? If you had discouraged I would have continued, but since you encouraged I switched!" It took me about 5 minutes or so to get him to calm down and listen to what he was saying. P.S. The difference between 4♠ down one and 4♠ making was the difference between 1st place and 6th place.

 

 

[lorserker]

i also have this tendency of making the "clever pass".

 

i dont remember gaining big victories like this, only looking silly on several occasions.

 

i still remember that 10 years ago i passed a forcing bid in a relay precision sequence playing with gwnn. the reason why i made an account on BBF is to poll about it because i thought it was clever :)

 

another time, playing against a top international we all looked up to i alerted a bid, he asked, and i explained "forcing" after which i immediately passed. everybody looked very disappointed at the end.

 

the pointis that if you are covered by the system it will not be your fault even if it's wrong. otherwise you will remember your "cleverness" for a long time :)

[Vampyr]

It seems your 1h was perfectly normal if you play Walsh style and now you have an easy 2nt rebid. You could have so much less.

 

If your partner wants you to pass 1c with this hand then you can discuss that later in the bar.

 

You do not have a "poor" 5 points, your points are just fine. :)

 

Yes. In fact I think that a hand containing an ace is always good enough to respond.