1H or 1S

[mgoetze]

Playing Transfer Walsh, the auction begins 1♣-1♦. Definitions for opener's rebid are now

 

1♥: 2-3 hearts in an 11-13 balanced hand, or exactly 3 hearts, 5+ clubs, 11-15 points.

 

1♠: 5+ clubs, 4 spades, 11-17 points (nonforcing but responder should do his best to find a second bid).

 

As you can see there is some overlap in these definitions when opener has 4315 or 4306 shape. I would certainly bid 1♠ with 14-15 points, as responder is going to assume 11-13 when we bid 1♥. The question is what is the right strategy with these shapes and 11-13? 1♥ generally has cleaner followups since there is more bidding room and opener's range is narrower, but it may not always be possible to unambiguously show an unbalanced hand. 1♠ immediately conveys the message that opener is unbalanced, but could lose the heart fit if responder isn't strong.

[straube]

1H feels very right here.

[nullve]

For me,

 

1♣-1♦; 1♠-1N; 2♥ = rules of 25-27*, 4S3H5+C,

 

so I don't have to reverse into 2♠ over 1♣-1♦; 1♥-1N. Apparently the latter isn't an option for you, though, since 1♥ is limited to 15 hcp.

 

* i.e. 16-18 hcp if 4315, 15-17 hcp if 4036

[BRBanger]

If the 1♠ rebid is not forcing, I think you must rebid 1♥ with 3h unbalanced, if those are your choices. Responder has shown hearts, not spades (yet).

 

After the 1♥ rebid, can responder show 4sp instead of opener? Then the Major fits will not be lost. e.g. After 1♣-1♦-1♥, then either 1♠ is natural, or you might use 1NT to show 4 spades (<INV) if you prefer to use 1♠ as artificial.

 

If responder is INV+ with or without spades, opener will be able to bid (e.g.) 2♠ later, in order to show shape and strength.

[mgoetze]

If the 1♠ rebid is not forcing, I think you must rebid 1♥ with 3h unbalanced, if those are your choices. Responder has shown hearts, not spades (yet).

 

After the 1♥ rebid, can responder show 4sp instead of opener? Then the Major fits will not be lost. e.g. After 1♣-1♦-1♥, then either 1♠ is natural, or you might use 1NT to show 4 spades (<INV) if you prefer to use 1♠ as artificial.

Yes, we invert 1♠ and 1NT, so 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT-2♠ establishes a 4-4 spade fit. The problem is that Opener would bid the same way with 4342 rather than 4306 - responder might be able to invite opposite the latter but not the former?

[straube]

Yes, we invert 1♠ and 1NT, so 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT-2♠ establishes a 4-4 spade fit. The problem is that Opener would bid the same way with 4342 rather than 4306 - responder might be able to invite opposite the latter but not the former?

 

You have a lot of room after 1C-1D, 1H-1N. Am I right so far in that 1H is limited to 13 or so and 1N shows 4 spades and is constructive but not-forcing? So maybe 2C shows six clubs and heart tolerance, but I think you have 2D, 2H, and 2S available for spade raises. Just assign one of them to 4315 or 4306.

[mgoetze]

You have a lot of room after 1C-1D, 1H-1N. Am I right so far in that 1H is limited to 13 or so and 1N shows 4 spades and is constructive but not-forcing? So maybe 2C shows six clubs and heart tolerance, but I think you have 2D, 2H, and 2S available for spade raises. Just assign one of them to 4315 or 4306.

If you read my first post you would see that 1♥ is 11-15. 1NT shows 4 spades and is non-forcing. I have no idea what "constructive" would mean in this context - it's going to be the final contract quite often.

 

Opener's bids over 1NT:

 

Pass: 11-13 NT without 4 spades

2♣: 11-15, 5+ clubs unbalanced, guarantees 3 hearts (otherwise would have bid 2♣ the previous round)

2♠: 11-13, with 4 spades

 

Yes, in principle I could assign one of 2♦ or 2♥ to showing the 4315/4306.... it seems like the sort of thing I would throw out again after a year because it didn't come up and we couldn't remember it. There is also a reasonable natural meaning for 2♦: a 2353/3352 shape with weak clubs.

[awm]

1♥ seems clearly better. Bidding 1♠ might land you there when hearts is better, but even if this doesn't happen you are left with auctions like 1♣-1♦-1♠-1NT or 1♣-1♦-1♠-2♣ (I'm assuming these are natural) after which opener must decide whether to rebid 2♥ (which might get to a bad moysian or simply too high) or pass (concealing a possible heart fit).

 

By completing the transfer you save space and should always have the chance to get back to spades when it's right. After 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT (spades) you have lots of bids available; you can always bid 3♠ on 4315/4306 and a decent hand (say 14-15) and this call is super-descriptive and not that likely to be too high given the playing strength of opener's shape. It's basically self-alerting too and hard to forget.

 

Assuming 1♣-1♦-1♥-2♣ is a puppet to 2♦ (usually start of an invite) I'd recommend agreeing here that breaking the puppet to bid 2♥ shows 4315 (never want to play diamonds there anyway, and pretty much always accepting a 5♥-invite). Then you can bid 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT-2♥ as the same hand (4315) and it might be easier to remember because it exists in two sequences.

[mgoetze]

Assuming 1♣-1♦-1♥-2♣ is a puppet to 2♦ (usually start of an invite) I'd recommend agreeing here that breaking the puppet to bid 2♥ shows 4315 (never want to play diamonds there anyway, and pretty much always accepting a 5♥-invite).

1♣-1♦-1♥-2♣ is actually natural, to play, the invites go via 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠. When opener refuses the transfer to 1NT and bids 2♣, this shows the unbalanced hand with 3 hearts, but that says nothing about spades.

 

What I'm actually worried about with completing the transfer is sequences like 1♣-1♦-1♥-2♦(ART GF)-2♠-3♠. Responder has slam interest and we have a spade fit, it would be really nice if we could tell him we have 4315/4306 rather than 4342 now.

[Kungsgeten]

What I'm actually worried about with completing the transfer is sequences like 1♣-1♦-1♥-2♦(ART GF)-2♠-3♠. Responder has slam interest and we have a spade fit, it would be really nice if we could tell him we have 4315/4306 rather than 4342 now.

 

Two possible solutions:

 

1C-1D; 1H-2D;

2H = 3 hearts, bal

2S = 4 spades, 2 hearts bal

2N = 3-2-4-4

3m = 3-2-(5-3)

3H = 5+ clubs, 3 hearts, 4 diamonds

3S = 5+ clubs, 3 hearts, 4 spades

 

This gets you quite high but keeps non jumps natural. The other one is more artificial:

 

1C-1D; 1H-2D;

2H = 2 hearts

2S = Any unbal

...2N = Relay

......3C = Short diamonds min

......3D = Short spades min

......3H = Short diamonds max

......3S = Short spades max

2N = 3 hearts, not 4S and not 5m

3C = 3 hearts and 4S, bal

3D = 5 diamonds and 3 hearts

3H = 5 clubs and 3 hearts

 

Over 2H, 2N and 3C responder can relay to find out more.

[straube]

It sounds like you don't want to have too much artificiality here. I would think to use 1C-1D, 1N-2D as something other than 5D332 because one would be removing from notrump with a balanced hand into a minor with no assurance of tolerance, assuming responder might rebid 1N with 4414.

 

Maybe...

 

1C-1D, 1H-1N

 

P-bal or 1-3-4-5 minimum

2C-6 clubs

2D-1-3-4-5 14-15

2H-4-3-1-5 minimum

2S-4S bal

3S-4-3-1-5 14-15

 

The use of 2D can occasionally lead to game or an improved contract; you have a 2H contract with a possible rough if nothing else. As awm wrote, 3S is self-alerting. The 2H bid ought to wake up partner because it's rather a nonsense bid unless you have a fit.

 

As an alternative, you could use...

 

2H-maximum spade raise (max 4-3-1-5?)

2S-minimum spade raise

 

As for 1C-1D, 1H-2D my assumption is you would like something not too complicated. Maybe...

 

2H-bal, 3 hearts, could have 4 spades

2S-bal, 2 hearts and 4S

2N-bal, other

3C-6C, probably 3H otherwise rebid 2C first?

3D-1345?

3H-4315 min

3S-4315 max

 

One fairly easy continuation for 3D, 3H, and 3S is to bid partner's shortness as a puppet when you want to offer a contract somewhere. You could even offer a 4m contract if partner is minimum. That leaves naming a suit to establish that suit as trump or even simultaneously RKCing in that suit.

[paulg]

With a weak 4315 then I would rebid 2♥ rather than just accept the transfer, in the same way that I would go 1♣-1♥-2♥ in standard. I understand that this style is less popular in some countries.

 

With a minimum 4306 it is more difficult and it would depend on the honour distribution, but if I don't rebid 2♥ then I cannot correct after 1♣-1♦!-1♠-2♣ as it should show a stronger hand.

[rhm]

1H feels very right here.

Why?

I feel very differently.

Shape before strength.

Playing such a system I would be happy to bid a descriptive 1♠. I also do not really understand why responder should strive to find a second bid any more than in a standard system when I have given a more precise description of my hand.

I also do not understand why I should loose the heart fit. I will almost always follow up with bidding hearts next. I am not worried about a weak moysian fit when responder knows my distribution and can correct to almost any other strain.

Playing XYZ 2♣ I recommend to break the transfer with 3 cards in responders major over 1♣-1♦-1♠-2♣.

Anyway the danger losing a spade fit by bidding hearts seems more likely to me.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[mgoetze]

So say I have 4315/4306 and it goes 1♣-1♦; 1♥-2♦; 3♠. Well then, how does responder show a (1) slam invite, (2) keycard ask in (a) clubs, (b) hearts, © spades? It looks like I'm out of room.

[straube]

Why?

I feel very differently.

Shape before strength.

Playing such a system I would be happy to bid a descriptive 1♠. I also do not really understand why responder should strive to find a second bid any more than in a standard system when I have given a more precise description of my hand.

I also do not understand why I should loose the heart fit. I will almost always follow up with bidding hearts next. I am not worried about a weak moysian fit when responder knows my distribution and can correct to almost any other strain.

Playing XYZ 2♣ I recommend to break the transfer with 3 cards in responders major over 1♣-1♦-1♠-2♣.

Anyway the danger losing a spade fit by bidding hearts seems more likely to me.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

1C-1D, 1S-P losing heart fit when pd is 3-5-x-y

 

1C-1D, 1S-1N, 2H is 11-x? How do you plan to show 4315 11-15 vs say 4315 16-18? Are you using 1C-1D, 1S-1N, 3H for that bid? I would rather 1C-1D, 1S-1N, 2H for the better hands.

 

As others have noted, 1C-1D, 1H leaves a lot of room and you don't need to lose spades at all.

[straube]

So say I have 4315/4306 and it goes 1♣-1♦; 1♥-2♦; 3♠. Well then, how does responder show a (1) slam invite, (2) keycard ask in (a) clubs, (b) hearts, © spades? It looks like I'm out of room.

 

What's your range of strength at this point?

[mgoetze]

What's your range of strength at this point?

Well in Kungsgeten's suggestion it was the full 11-15 whereas you suggested splitting the range between 3♥ and 3♠, no? Anyway the point is I can't set trump in a forcing manner.

[straube]

It's difficult. I wouldn't think you would want to play anything complicated for such a rare situation, but if you did...

 

Using Kungsgeten's suggestion, maybe...

 

4C-strength ask

.....4D-good

..........4H-RKC clubs

..........4S-RKC hearts

..........4N-RKC spades

.....4H-bad, pass or correct

4D-puppets 4H, not slamming

.....4H-pass or correct

4H-RKC clubs

4S-RKC hearts

4N-RKC spades

 

If you have a narrower range...

 

4C-RKC clubs

4D-puppets 4H, not slamming

4H-RKC hearts

4S-RKC spades

 

Folks who relay would just use their normal machinery for such a hand

 

4C-asks relay points or controls

4D-puppets 4H for p/c

4M-either RKC asks or inviting partner to respond RKC with extras (either/or depending on partnership agreement)

[jallerton]

Yes, we invert 1♠ and 1NT, so 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT-2♠ establishes a 4-4 spade fit. The problem is that Opener would bid the same way with 4342 rather than 4306 - responder might be able to invite opposite the latter but not the former?

 

You can play 2♦ as showing a good 2♠ bid here (so could be selected if you happened to hold a 4306 and the opponents happened to have forgotten to overcall in diamonds). 2♦ is not needed in a natural sense. Even if it's your style to open 1♣ on a 5♦332 shape, why would you want to escape from 1NT when partner has shown 4-4 in the majors?

 

 

With a weak 4315 then I would rebid 2♥ rather than just accept the transfer, in the same way that I would go 1♣-1♥-2♥ in standard. I understand that this style is less popular in some countries.

 

With a minimum 4306 it is more difficult and it would depend on the honour distribution, but if I don't rebid 2♥ then I cannot correct after 1♣-1♦!-1♠-2♣ as it should show a stronger hand.

 

When I first played transfers over 1♣, I played this way to be analogous with standard methods. However, I've now changed to putting these hands in the 1M completion (as the auction is so low, we have plenty of room to distinguish the hand types on the next round). Knowing that Opener has 4-card support makes it easier for Responder to judge whether to proceed and, perhaps more importantly, will lead to less information leakage when Responder just wants to play in 4M opposite 4-card support.

[fromageGB]

I wouldn't think completing the transfer should necessarily show a weak hand. As has been said, playing the spade/NT inversion gives you plenty of room for further bids, so 1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 1NT 2♦ can be an unspecifed strength hand with prime spade support and diamond shortage. The problem then is what to bid when partner does NOT have spades. Over 1♠ I think 2♦ would be to play, so the heart support could be shown by 2♥ now. This surely implies a weaker 3 card support with a shortage, as there was no immediate support, and 3♥ is stronger.

 

A simple method, but would this fit with the rest of the system?

 

Edit : ...1NT then 2♦ could be the weak splinter, and ...1NT 3♦ the stronger splinter. I use these bids for that purpose with 4 card support for an initial major transfer.

[mgoetze]

1C-1D; 1H-2D;

2H = 3 hearts, bal

2S = 4 spades, 2 hearts bal

2N = 3-2-4-4

3m = 3-2-(5-3)

3H = 5+ clubs, 3 hearts, 4 diamonds

3S = 5+ clubs, 3 hearts, 4 spades

I'm not sure it's really worthwhile differentiating 3244 and 32(53) immediately, so perhaps I could just use 3♦/3♠ as splinter-type bids. This would alleviate the trump setting problem (e.g. 1♣-1♦; 1♥-2♦; 3♦-3♠ sets spades). But it could be a memory problem.

 

Also another question would be whether to use these bids with shapes like 3316/1336.

[jallerton]

I wouldn't think completing the transfer should necessarily show a weak hand. As has been said, playing the spade/NT inversion gives you plenty of room for further bids, so 1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 1NT 2♦ can be an unspecifed strength hand with prime spade support and diamond shortage. The problem then is what to bid when partner does NOT have spades. Over 1♠ I think 2♦ would be to play, so the heart support could be shown by 2♥ now. This surely implies a weaker 3 card support with a shortage, as there was no immediate support, and 3♥ is stronger.

 

A simple method, but would this fit with the rest of the system?

 

Edit : ...1NT then 2♦ could be the weak splinter, and ...1NT 3♦ the stronger splinter. I use these bids for that purpose with 4 card support for an initial major transfer.

 

Completing the transfer does show a minimum hand in the context provided by the opening post:

 

Playing Transfer Walsh, the auction begins 1♣-1♦. Definitions for opener's rebid are now

 

1♥: 2-3 hearts in an 11-13 balanced hand, or exactly 3 hearts, 5+ clubs, 11-15 points.

[mgoetze]

Completing the transfer does show a minimum hand in the context provided by the opening post:

Yeah that's a pretty fundamental design decision that I'm not really planning to revisit at this point. ;)

[fromageGB]

Yeah that's a pretty fundamental design decision that I'm not really planning to revisit at this point. ;)

In that case, just stick with bidding 1♥ on those weak hands. The continuation over 1 inverted ♠ is 2♥ with the diamond shortage hand, and over 1NT is 2♦ splinter in support of spades. No problem. Either way you are showing the hand shape.

 

At least I would be - I don't know if delayed heart support means something else to you.