Gerber

[euclidz]

I've just read through a post on what was described by someone as RKCG. Taking aside RKC anything, during my time on BBO, I've formed the view that most here do not and would not use Gerber. I don't understand why and would appreciate any constructive reasoning on why it is not used?

[wank]

though gerber is occasionally useful, those occassions are very few and far between. good players often replace gerber with something which has more frequent utility. bad players on the other hand, normally play gerber and use it in entirely inappropriate situations. this has led to a little anti-gerber snobbishness.

[Zelandakh]

There are 2 cases for Gerber. The first is after a NT opening. Back in the day Gerber was sometimes extremely useful with strong 1-suited hands here but bidding developments have allowed these hands to bid more slowly and effectively, thus robbing Gerber of its niche here to some extent.

 

The other case is where a suit is agreed and a pair is using Gerber to ask for key cards 4 steps lower. The problem here is that it interferes with the application of cue bids, which means that the conditions for key card asking, specifically knowing that there are not 2 losers in a specific side suit, are often not held.

 

Finally, sometimes it gets suggested to take this idea a stage further by playing "4♣ is always Gerber". This has many more issues as 4♣ is often an extremely useful natural bid.

 

In short, bidding theory has moved on to the point where Gerber is simply not the most effective approach most of the time. There are still hands where it can be helpful but almost no auctions where it is the best use for a 4♣ call.

[fromageGB]

If I am in a situation with major suit agreed, I want to have 4♣ as a control showing bid. This is very useful if you use the concept of making cue bids below the level of 4M to determine if any suit is "wide open", such as one hand holding Jx and the other Qxx. If this is the case then it is a waste of time ace asking and perhaps committing to the 5-level where you may go off on bad breaks.

 

Using cue bids also enables you to show additional strength, without getting above game - you can often leave that decision to partner. Without this, it can sometimes be difficult to discover the strong-strong scenario, the "16 hcp opposite 16", where neither hand is good enough to ace ask unilaterally.

 

If I jump to 4♣, and this is an unbid suit, I like this to show a singleton or void in a game going hand, as this can give partner the information he needs (such as his hand has no wasted values in that suit) that can enable him to find a slam that would not be bid on general strength values.

 

Both of the above apply to any suit of course, not just clubs, but the gains outweigh any Gerber use.

 

When I have transferred to clubs over partner's 1NT, I like 4♣ to be a slam suggestion. He has the option of showing support/suitability by replying with his ace reply as if I had asked, but he can also make a denial. Similarly, if 2-suited I can look for a major fit and if one is not there, make a slam try with 4♣.

 

Another argument for me is that Gerber does not give enough information. Whatever my hand, I can usually pick a suit where by ace asking in that suit I can discover useful information such as the K or the Q. Usually you can convert the final contract to NT if that seems sensible.

 

Any Gerber method needs to have specific king responses, and most people don't play that way. Specific kings are sometimes the key to grand slam, as opposed to the small slam most others will bid.

 

Finally, ace asking with 4♣, when you are going to play in a suit contract, gains almost nothing. You have all the room you need if you play that the ace ask bid is one step up from 4 of the trump suit. If you are thinking that an advantage is that you can ace ask and still stop in 4♠, I would counter that your bidding to that point is insufficiently accurate. You should not be asking unless you are - generally speaking - happy at the 5-level.

[nullve]

Think of it this way: if you have a fit, you can use RKC to find out about key cards, which is better than just finding out about aces, anyway. If you don't have a fit, you need high card points (in the old days 33 or more), but then you will hardly ever reach slam with two aces missing unless someone's made a mistake.

[Cyberyeti]

Think of it this way: if you have a fit, you can use RKC to find out about key cards, which is better than just finding out about aces, anyway. If you don't have a fit, you need high card points (in the old days 33 or more), but then you will hardly ever reach slam with two aces missing unless someone's made a mistake.

 

It's useful when one of the hands is balanced, and aces are all you need to know about. Most of the time, keycard will solve this for you but:

 

1N-2♥-2♠-4N and 1N-4N are not ace asking they're quantitative. If you don't play 1N-4m as a Texas transfer then using 1N-4♣ and 1N-2♥-2♠-4♣ as blackwood has some merit.

 

Also in the semi balanced cases say 2263 opposite a notrump shape you can easily have a slam on with less than 33 points so asking aces can be useful.

[nullve]

1N-2♥-2♠-4N and 1N-4N are not ace asking they're quantitative. If you don't play 1N-4m as a Texas transfer then using 1N-4♣ and 1N-2♥-2♠-4♣ as blackwood has some merit.

The main reason some don't play South-African Texas is that they play Gerber instead.

 

Also in the semi balanced cases say 2263 opposite a notrump shape you can easily have a slam on with less than 33 points so asking aces can be useful.

But with 2263 opposite a notrump shape you're guaranteed at least an 8-card diamond fit, so RKC should be an option.

[euclidz]

Thanks for the helpful replies

[Zelandakh]

The main reason some don't play South-African Texas is that they play Gerber instead.

I do not play either, nor for that matter use 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 4♣ as asking for key cards. There are other alternatives here, particularly having a sequence that sets the major as trumps and starts a cue bidding auction complete with S/F3NT. This not only solves the asking and general invite cases but also provides additional security and information on other hands.

[Cyberyeti]

The main reason some don't play South-African Texas is that they play Gerber instead.

 

We actually don't play SAT to use 4♦ to deal with some of the 5-5M hands so Gerber is just a use for 4♣.

 

But with 2263 opposite a notrump shape you're guaranteed at least an 8-card diamond fit, so RKC should be an option.

 

Yes, but transfer then 4N is quantitative, so unless you're going to fiddle around or have other arrangements like minorwood it's not always that easy.

[Cyberyeti]

I do not play either, nor for that matter use 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 4♣ as asking for key cards. There are other alternatives here, particularly having a sequence that sets the major as trumps and starts a cue bidding auction complete with S/F3NT. This not only solves the asking and general invite cases but also provides additional security and information on other hands.

 

This is not too difficult after a 1N opener, it's more awkward after a 2N opener.

[kenrexford]

No one wants to admit to ever playing Gerber be ause it is fun to make fun of Gerber. The fact that it makes one think of babies doesn't help, either. Imagine a Bieber Convention. Who would admit to playing that?

[Zelandakh]

This is not too difficult after a 1N opener, it's more awkward after a 2N opener.

Very true but after a 2NT opening the space is so limited that it makes even less sense to devote a very useful call to such a limited use.

[steve2005]

Very true but after a 2NT opening the space is so limited that it makes even less sense to devote a very useful call to such a limited use.

Over 2N and all you think you need to know is aces could use Super-Gerber 5C

[zillahandp]

Because all those who say they play it do not seem to understand when 4c is or is not gerber.it is generally taught to beginners who like it because it is lower than 4nt. The only circumstance it might be played is directly over 1/2nt and then very very few hands merit this approach if any. It is the province of the beginner thats why no one at a decent level plays it.

[ArtK78]

Gerber is a very useful convention in the right situation. The problem with Gerber is the problem with every convention - if it is used improperly, it can produce bad results.

 

I use Gerber in a number of situations. One of them came up in a Grand Nationals Team District semifinals some years ago, and partner forgot, so he used RKCB. This resulted in our playing 5S down 1 instead of 4S making, and it cost the match.

 

Now, perhaps the anti-Gerber crowd would say that my partner shouldn't have used either key card convention, or that their pet methods would have worked better. And maybe they are right. But that is not the point. Any convention, if used correctly, can work well. And any convention, if used incorrectly, can produce bad results.

[nullve]

thats why no one at a decent level plays it.

Apparently, Levin-Weinstein play it:

 

http://info.ecatsbridge.com/Systems/2013worldteamchampionships-bali/bermudabowl/usa%20i/levin-weinstein.pdf

 

Maybe it's a cultural thing, like playing Flannery (which they also play, btw).

[Zelandakh]

The only circumstance it might be played is directly over 1/2nt and then very very few hands merit this approach if any. It is the province of the beginner thats why no one at a decent level plays it.

The most common position for playing it is directly over a non-club preempt - this is used by some very good players indeed. The other situations popular at a high level are after a red suit transfer (Baze) and after club suit agreement at the 3 level (Minorwood). To suggest that no good players ever use 4♣ as a key card ask is quite wrong though.

[Cyberyeti]

Over 2N and all you think you need to know is aces could use Super-Gerber 5C

 

OK, so I have x, KQx, KQJxxxxx, x - partner has AKQJ, xx(x), xx(x), AKQJ and we have nowhere to go when partner bids above 5♦ even 4N is not safe, after gerber I can play 5♦.

[Vampyr]

The main reason some don't play South-African Texas is that they play Gerber instead.

 

If you want Gerber you can just play ordinary Texas.

[Fluffy]

The reason why gerber is mocked I guess its because its one of those conventions that is widely missused.

 

On my land nobody knows about gerber, but they missuse blackwood the most, using it for hands that want to invite to slam.

 

Inviting to slam is way more likely than having slam but having to check for keycards before bidding it. 4 clubs is very useful for a variety of slam invites like splinter, natural, cuebid, etc.

[ArtK78]

The reason why gerber is mocked I guess its because its one of those conventions that is widely missused.

 

On my land nobody knows about gerber, but they missuse blackwood the most, using it for hands that want to invite to slam.

 

Inviting to slam is way more likely than having slam but having to check for keycards before bidding it. 4 clubs is very useful for a variety of slam invites like splinter, natural, cuebid, etc.

So Gerber would be an improvement for them. They could misuse Gerber and be a level lower.

[helene_t]

So Gerber would be an improvement for them. They could misuse Gerber and be a level lower.

Not really. Pairs who play "4NT is always blackwood" rarely have misunderstandings about it. They are sometimes stuck for a bid when they have a quantitative 4NT bid but that should not be a top priority for most club players.

 

Club-level gerberist have basically two options:

- 4♣ is always Gerber. Needless to say that is terrible.

- 4♣ is sometimes Gerber. Leads to tons of misunderstandings.

[Cyberyeti]

Not really. Pairs who play "4NT is always blackwood" rarely have misunderstandings about it. They are sometimes stuck for a bid when they have a quantitative 4NT bid but that should not be a top priority for most club players.

 

Club-level gerberist have basically two options:

- 4♣ is always Gerber. Needless to say that is terrible.

- 4♣ is sometimes Gerber. Leads to tons of misunderstandings.

 

Or option 3 which is not uncommon, only Gerber directly over a natural 1N or 2N opener (with 2♣-2♦-2N and the multi equivalent included) which almost never has misunderstandings until you try to ask for kings.

[StevenG]

- 4♣ is sometimes Gerber. Leads to tons of misunderstandings.

That used to work quite well when Gerber was alertable. If the expected alert did not happen, it was emphasised by a long hard glare. Partner got the message.

 

Fortunately that method no longer works.