Walddk Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 As responder you hold ♠ Q86♥ KJ853♦ 104♣ Q84 The bidding goes 1♣ - 1♥1♠ - ?? What is your bid now? Since I don't know how to get the vote option (maybe someone will enlighten me), I will give you 5 bids to choose from this way: 1: Pass 2. 1NT 3. 2♣ 4. 2♥ 5. 2♠ Which do you choose and why? Does it make a difference for you if opener has shown an unbalanced hand? Some bypass a major to show 12-14 balanced, so 1♠ should be unbalanced if that is your agreement. If you don't have that agreement, opener could be 4333 or the like. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Yes it makes a difference. If opener has shown a 54, then 2C stands out. Otherwise I 1NT is the book bid. Not ideal because of diam weakness, but it's the lesser evil. At least I think so. I sympatize with the book bid, but there are alternatives to it, depending on personal style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Since I don't know how to get the vote option .... I do now! I will thank myself for finding out. Gosh, I learned something today :) Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldgun Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 i think 2♠ should make pass will lose game if pd have unbalance hand and good hcps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I like the agreement that 1♠ shows at least four clubs, i.e. with a 4333 opener would bid 1NT. Then it becomes 2♣ at IMPs and 1NT at matchpoints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I think this depends. I play xyz with the (not automatic) implication that 1♠ is almost forcing, so pass is not an option. The 1♠ rebid shows at least 4-4 in the black suits for me, as 4333 hands bid NT at the first opportunity; but it doesn't promise 5-4, so no 2♣. I don't like 2♠ at IMPs at all, as I don't have tools to steer away from the 4-3 fit in case partner is a strong hand and wants to play game, so I would bid 1NT. At MPs, I like 2♠ because I wouldn't be suprised to take one more trick in spades than in NT if partner passes. @Roland: To get the vote options, click "New Poll" instead of "New Topic". Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Since in any sensible partnership opener has shown 5C and 4S, is not 2C a totally obvious bid? What's that you say? Opener didn't show 5C and 4S. Well then sorry, I can't help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I like the agreement that 1♠ shows at least four clubs, i.e. with a 4333 opener would bid 1NT. Then it becomes 2♣ at IMPs and 1NT at matchpoints. i play that in this sequence 1C shows 5, not 4, clubs *unless* opener is 4441... so after 1c : any : 1s, i always play him for 4/5 in the black suits.. imo it makes life simpler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Since in any sensible partnership opener has shown 5C and 4S, is not 2C a totally obvious bid? What's that you say? Opener didn't show 5C and 4S. Well then sorry, I can't help you. Do you really think your arguments are soo weak that you need to use this tone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Since in any sensible partnership opener has shown 5C and 4S, is not 2C a totally obvious bid? What's that you say? Opener didn't show 5C and 4S. Well then sorry, I can't help you. I think you have a know-all and degrading attitude (not for the first time I read in other threads). As far as I recall, you even apologised for being cocky. You are entitled to your opinion, but it's not acceptable to claim that "in any sensible partnership opener has shown 5C and 4S". It is perfectly legitimate to play this as showing no more than 3-4, or 4-4 if you play 4-card majors. That is also sensible whether you like it or not. "Well then sorry, I can't help you". That's ok, but what is your point of contributing to this thread I wonder. Say something constructive, or say nothing at all! Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 " It is perfectly legitimate to play this as showing no more than 3-4" No its not! In fact I would go further and to say that to bid this way stamps you as a beginner. There is one exception - you are playing Polish Club. Furthermore Roland, your point is illogical, because playing 4 card Majors you would open the 4 card M, so what is this 4-4 point? With 4C and 4S a wnt player will either open 1NT or open the M and rebid NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I play that in this sequence 1C shows 5, not 4, clubs *unless* opener is 4441 I don't think opener could be 4144. With a singleton hearts he would have opened 1♦ (maybe not with ♣AKQJ and ♦5432 but usually). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 " It is perfectly legitimate to play this as showing no more than 3-4" No its not! In fact I would go further and to say that to bid this way stamps you as a beginner. There is one exception - you are playing Polish Club. Furthermore Roland, your point is illogical, because playing 4 card Majors you would open the 4 card M, so what is this 4-4 point? With 4C and 4S a wnt player will either open 1NT or open the M and rebid NT. Ladies and gentlemen. The Hog has just shown that he has a monopoly of the truth, so the rest of us might just as well go packing. If we don't play it "The Hog way", we are beginners. The world's new oracle. The Hog has the only right answer to all aspects of bridge. In case The Hog didn't know, it is also perfectly legitimate, and even quite common, to bid 4-card suits up the line if you play 4-card majors. We do not have to play Acol anno 1957 if we think that there is something better at hand. I repeat: Your attitude is degrading and contemptuous. How pitiful. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Ron, if your point is that it's suboptimal to play this:1♣ is either 12-14 bal, 18-19 bal, 12+ 4414, or natural1♣-1♥ could easily be 5-37, 44 majorsthen I happen to agree with you. However, I think everyone on this forum is familiar with the arguments so it doesn't get us further simply to state that it's silly. Besides, it's what you are more or less forced to play with many pick-up partners at BBO. And under the conditions given, I don't think it would be completely silly to rebid 1♠ on certain ballanced hands. If I'm wrong, please explain why I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Ron (the_hog) is toughed skin, but let's tone down the arguements. We can disagree without getting personal about it. I will NOT rebid 2C, as I play that as xyz. Tis hand isn't worth the nebulous game try 2C. I will not rebid 2H as partner tends to support with three cards. So for me, my chioice is between 1NT and 2S. The doubleton diamonds and the three spades to an honor push me towards 2S. I can, should I want, get out (or try to get out) in 3C with a 2NT bid here, which I play as a transfer to 3C. Sometimes, conventions llike xyz hurt you. I think the right bid here is probably 2C if that shows clubs and modest values. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 "In case The Hog didn't know, it is also perfectly legitimate, and even quite common, to bid 4-card suits up the line if you play 4-card majors. We do not have to play Acol anno 1957 if we think that there is something better at hand" Roland you are talking absolute nonsense and if you think about it you will agree. If you play a weak NT system - all 4333 4432 shapes in the 12-14 range are opened 1NT. This is basic. Yes? (Even many 5332's) If you play a 4 card M strong NT system, you open the Major and you rebid NT to show 12-14. This is also basic, else why play 4 card majors, except for their pre emptive value?. I would have thought that after having done so many vue graphs you would be familiar with these basic concepts. I would also have thought that you are aware that most good players treat balanced hands as such and strive to bid NTs with balanced distibutions. Apart from the Poles I know of no decent player who opens 1C on a 4333 and rebids 1S over 1red suit, apart from the already mentioned Poles. (And even then playing Matula's version of PC the correct bid is 1H, but did you know that?) Perhaps instead of making fatuous comments you might like to include some examples of expert bidding in the future to illustrate your points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 "In case The Hog didn't know, it is also perfectly legitimate, and even quite common, to bid 4-card suits up the line if you play 4-card majors. We do not have to play Acol anno 1957 if we think that there is something better at hand" Roland you are talking absolute nonsense and if you think about it you will agree. If you play a weak NT system - all 4333 4432 shapes in the 12-14 range are opened 1NT. This is basic. Yes? (Even many 5332's) If you play a 4 card M strong NT system, you open the Major and you rebid NT to show 12-14. This is also basic, else why play 4 card majors, except for their pre emptive value?. I would have thought that after having done so many vue graphs you would be familiar with these basic concepts. I would also have thought that you are aware that most good players treat balanced hands as such and strive to bid NTs with balanced distibutions. Apart from the Poles I know of no decent player who opens 1C on a 4333 and rebids 1S over 1red suit, apart from the already mentioned Poles. (And even then playing Matula's version of PC the correct bid is 1H, but did you know that?) Perhaps instead of making fatuous comments you might like to include some examples of expert bidding in the future to illustrate your points. I do not agree, and I don't need you to tell me that I am beginner if I don't play it your way. With some partners, Peter Lund (senior European champion) is one of them, I bid 4-card suits up the line even if I play a strong NT (which we do vulnerable). Let me tell you this once and for all: Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. You are too, but that does not give you the right to say: "In fact I would go further and to say that to bid this way stamps you as a beginner", which you did in a previous post. Vote for 2♣ if you wish, but don't stamp the rest as beginners if they do not. It's contemptuous. As Arend (cherdano) pointed out: I don't like your tone. Does it really take that much to speak in a civilised manner? Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 "I do not agree, and I don't need you to tell me that I am beginner if I don't play it your way." Note Roland - I did NOT say YOU were a beginner. I said anyone who bids 1S on a 4333 hand would be labeled as a beginner. Do NOT put words into my mouth! If you wish to quote authorities - with Dilks, (ask Nicola Smith/Gardener if you don't know), the 1S bid is atrocious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 "I do not agree, and I don't need you to tell me that I am beginner if I don't play it your way." Note Roland - I did NOT say YOU were a beginner. I said anyone who bids 1S on a 4333 hand would be labeled as a beginner. Do NOT put words into my mouth! If you wish to quote authorities - with Dilks, (ask Nicola Smith/Gardener if you don't know), the 1S bid is atrocious! With some partners (Peter Lund for instance) my 1♠ rebid can indeed be 4333, so I am a beginner after all. I do not put words in your mouth. You do label me as a beginner if I do. Excuse me, but that says a lot more about you than about me. You may disagree all you like, but I don't think it's fair to label me as a beginner. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I said anyone who bids 1S on a 4333 hand would be labeled as a beginner. Then the french team who won the 1997 bermuda bowl (vs meckwell, mind you) should be labeled as "beginners" :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Ron (the_hog) is toughed skin, but let's tone down the arguements. We can disagree without getting personal about it. In this case, I cannot. I don't disagree with The_Hog about his bridge arguments (or maybe I do, but it's not my point); not even so much about his know-it-all style, but about his negative attitude towards other posters (sometimes even first-time posters). This is a personal issue, and an issue that I feel the need to discuss. But I have said enough about this, I believe. Arend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I already made the exception re PC, Majeure cinqe escaped me, but it is really poor, regardless of what Chemla says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 You know what? I don't agree with Chemla as well.. lol. I prefer play it as 5-4. The difference is I see Chemla's point and respect it. (Actually it's probably not Chemla but Roudinesco or Soulet.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I said anyone who bids 1S on a 4333 hand would be labeled as a beginner. Then the french team who won the 1997 bermuda bowl (vs meckwell, mind you) should be labeled as "beginners" :rolleyes: 100000 persons in France and probably 5000 in Belgium are beginners because they rebid 1♠ ! I also learn something today, Roland ! LOL, LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted March 31, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 I think it's fine to bypass a major in order to show a balanced hand, and I do that with other partners. Not that this methods doesn't have a downside too: missing a major partscore when responder is weak. I don't have strong feelings towards either. I am happy to play whatever partners prefers. In other words: I am flexible. I am not sure that word exits in the Hog's vocabulary. There is only one thing that bothers me at this point. People who don't rebid 1NT with 4333 are beginners, except the Poles and French. Are you quite sure that you can't find quite capable players elsewhere who do exactly the same (1♠ rebid)? And if you don't think you can find any, does that necessarily mean that you are right and others are wrong, and that they don't exist? According to The Hog, people who don't bid a major before a minor in a 4-card major system are also wrong. How come that all the world's great players don't play the same methods as you then? Are they beginners, or could it be that they know a little more about bridge than you? Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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